Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[strad]

Back on track - I'm finding that playing left hand only in a session for tunes I don't know is helping me both with harmonies and playing bass side as well. If I can hear what I'm doing!

Not being able to read music would seem a huge handicap. If there's a tune I like and I find the notes for it I can start learning it without anyone else to play it for me. Once I've got the bare bones of the tune I shut the book and start learning to play it.

Initially I learned from the dots (having worked out what they meant) but then I moved to a place where I had to learn by ear - in the days before computers and the 'net.  So I have the best of both worlds. I don't have to slavishly follow the dots but try and play the tunes in a way that I think sounds good. Though I am surprised at the number of people who have to have the dots and also the number who can't read music.
To me it's part of the whole, not a separate language.

Nigel

[Ebor_fiddler]

Back to dots v ears? LDT - do we need retreading here? I'm trying to learn "Waiting for The Federals" from dots, but it WILL keep changing into Bonaparte's Retreat which I know by ear!   

[Stiamh]

As Anahata said, for a counter melody, it's necessary to be familiar with the tune. If you're not - play rhythm.

When I get into Irish sessions I play chords if I don't know the tune, untill I can see where the tune is going...

I'd have thought you'd want to know where the tune was going before you started playing chords - or anything at all in fact.

[Chris Ryall]

Interesting approaches (from all directions).  Personally I hear a tune 'in chords' and have just come back from the Tideswell Swedish weekend where I wondered if it was to do with left handedness. I was the only south paw of about 20 musicians and they were all strictly 'tune' types (maybe not the harpist). At one point we all sat and 'learned' a harmony!

The 'play left hand only' is IMO (and paradoxically) the key to this door. I used to do exactly this. I'd listen to the music at least once through if it's novel (or silently curse the b'stard who rolled into an immediate medley). As I say - for me the chords then come into my head more or less straight away - Swedish quarter tone fiddle tunes yesterday being an exception!

OK - this is how to do it.

Play those chords on the RIGHT end. (Sarah, I'm afraid this means you'll need to memorise right end G, D Em Am A7 and C chords to do common session keys). Bm and F#m chords are also sometimes useful. 1. Start by simply playing the chords on right end  - just get used to it - learn to do it 'light' 2. Next week - break them up a bit - make arpegios - a lighter riff - down rather than up - whatever 3. Week 3 - select one or two notes from 'the chord of the moment' and run them as a musical line with selected notes from next chord, etc etc.  you are now playing a harmony line.  It doesn't matter what chord note you pick - though 3rds and 7ths have more 'colour'. Avoid the chord tonic - tends to add very little harmonically 4. End of month - meanwhile you've taught yourself to cross finger the G scale in particular (D is only slightly harder) and will now use it to move between chord notes.   eg if our present chord is C - play |C  D,E  F#,G| rather than |C E G| if its a waltz, This is early counterpoint. Experiment.  See what sounds nice. 5. If it's a 5 week month you might introduce some off scale notes - |C D,F F#,G| - you get away with more murder on the notes between those in the chords. This is now a basic jazz line and involves risk! - so perhaps better saved for a leap year? A more practical approach is a chord substitution. Start with 'relative minor'. Use Em notes when the chord is G; use Am when it's C; use Bm when it's D (I told you Bm might be useful)!

Steps 1-4 are actually quite a short journey, and the beauty of both scales and melodeon is that on-scale harmonies and linking notes virtually always sound harmonious - even with others doing the same thing.  All the right hand chords in the method above are available on 2 rows. You just need to find them

PS - much less effective in Irish music as it's less chord based.

[Alan Morley]

As Anahata said, for a counter melody, it's necessary to be familiar with the tune. If you're not - play rhythm.

When I get into Irish sessions I play chords if I don't know the tune, untill I can see where the tune is going...

I'd have thought you'd want to know where the tune was going before you started playing chords - or anything at all in fact.

Busking along to unfamiliar tunes is not that difficult with such a limited choice of chords you can play, plus you also listen and watch what others are doing. Tunes do fall into repeating patterns and it's just like playing rhythm guitar, not really taxing on most Irish jigs and reels..

[Chris Ryall]

Busking along to unfamiliar tunes is not that difficult with such a limited choice of chords you can play, plus you also listen and watch what others are doing. Tunes do fall into repeating patterns and it's just like playing rhythm guitar,

Yup - just do it!

not really taxing on most Irish jigs and reels... 

Basically a 2 chord trick. Drive me mad (as someone who likes chords )

[Marje]

It's come as quite a relief to me to see I'm not alone in going for the chords first. I haven't noticed anyone else around here doing that, but if I hear a new tune and want to learn it by ear, that's what I do: I try chords in the left hand first, while listening to the melody. Then by about the third time through, once the bellows are already moving in the right  direction, it's usually quite easy to fit the melody in. In some cases I realise I'm not going to manage it and I just stick with the basses or some vague chords in the right hand.

[Theo]

I try chords in the left hand first,

It is very helpful to learn the chords on the right hand as Chris suggested,  the sound blends in better which can be an advantage if you are finding your way round a tune, and it gets your fingers in the right places for tune.

[Québécois]

I'd have thought you'd want to know where the tune was going before you started playing chords - or anything at all in fact.

Safe and civilized approach! If you don't know what to do, then, do nothing and enjoy the music

[Stiamh]

not really taxing on most Irish jigs and reels...  

Basically a 2 chord trick. Drive me mad (as someone who likes chords )

There are a few tunes that might appear to be 2-chord tricks, certainly - esp. the ones in e.g. E dorian that go E for 2 bars, D for 2 bars, etc. etc. But even many of those tunes allow for quite a bit of tasty substitution (without straying into the annoying territory staked out by certain guitarists who IMHO ought to leave trad music alone and take up jazz).

To me it seems that harmonic backing for Irish music requires a rather different approach from other trad styles. Melody is paramount, and indeed the tunes can stand very well on their own without any harmony. Backing needs to be sensitive and sympathetic to be appreciated, and this requires knowing the tunes pretty well. Which is why I reacted ironically to Almo's original statement, and which is also why François' comment above is right on the money IMO.

[Alan Morley]

not really taxing on most Irish jigs and reels...  

Basically a 2 chord trick. Drive me mad (as someone who likes chords )

There are a few tunes that might appear to be 2-chord tricks, certainly - esp. the ones in e.g. E dorian that go E for 2 bars, D for 2 bars, etc. etc. But even many of those tunes allow for quite a bit of tasty substitution (without straying into the annoying territory staked out by certain guitarists who IMHO ought to leave trad music alone and take up jazz).

To me it seems that harmonic backing for Irish music requires a rather different approach from other trad styles. Melody is paramount, and indeed the tunes can stand very well on their own without any harmony. Backing needs to be sensitive and sympathetic to be appreciated, and this requires knowing the tunes pretty well. Which is why I reacted ironically to Almo's original statement, and which is also why François' comment above is right on the money IMO.

Strewth 'sensitive and sympathetic' on thrash jigs and reels!!!!....Em to D

ha ha

Almo

[Owen Woods]

not really taxing on most Irish jigs and reels...  

Basically a 2 chord trick. Drive me mad (as someone who likes chords )

There are a few tunes that might appear to be 2-chord tricks, certainly - esp. the ones in e.g. E dorian that go E for 2 bars, D for 2 bars, etc. etc. But even many of those tunes allow for quite a bit of tasty substitution (without straying into the annoying territory staked out by certain guitarists who IMHO ought to leave trad music alone and take up jazz).

To me it seems that harmonic backing for Irish music requires a rather different approach from other trad styles. Melody is paramount, and indeed the tunes can stand very well on their own without any harmony. Backing needs to be sensitive and sympathetic to be appreciated, and this requires knowing the tunes pretty well. Which is why I reacted ironically to Almo's original statement, and which is also why François' comment above is right on the money IMO.

Agreed. I play Irish music quite a lot during term time and it has taught me the enormous difference in bass technique between Irish and English and to a lesser degree Scottish. I now think that I can play bass to Irish tunes OK merely by taking the view that less is more and remembering that it needs to lilt, which is the thing I like most about Irish music.

[Martin J]

It is very helpful to learn the chords on the right hand as Chris suggested,  the sound blends in better which can be an advantage if you are finding your way round a tune, and it gets your fingers in the right places for tune.

I believe Mally published many pages of right hand cords in one of his books.  As you say Theo your fingers are in the right place for the tune but even if you don't know the tune and are on the right cord, simple arpeggios make a fine harmony (most of the time, as always use with discretion)

[Lester]

If you want right hand chords look no further than HERE

[Martin J]

Thanks Lester and apologies for not knowing it was there.

[Chris Ryall]

Lester - just looked back at the chord chart. I hadn't expected half diminished (tho' can intimate this came up 'entirely naturally' in last w/e's Norwegian music).  However I don't see sus chords in there. As purely 'diatonic' chords these come up all the time in 'English' melodeonism, and were even used for morris by Kenneth Lovelace. Any chance of adding them in?  -     

[Chris Ryall]

There are a few tunes that might appear to be 2-chord tricks, certainly - esp. the ones in e.g. E dorian that go E for 2 bars, D for 2 bars, etc. etc. But even many of those tunes allow for quite a bit of tasty substitution (without straying into the annoying territory staked out by certain guitarists who IMHO ought to leave trad music alone and take up jazz).

To me it seems that harmonic backing for Irish music requires a rather different approach from other trad styles. Melody is paramount, and indeed the tunes can stand very well on their own without any harmony. Backing needs to be sensitive and sympathetic to be appreciated, and this requires knowing the tunes pretty well. Which is why I reacted ironically to Almo's original statement, and which is also why François' comment above is right on the money IMO.

Very nicely put. Especially the bit about the melody being paramount. I'd also echo the earlier comment - if your harmony line doesn't seem to be 'adding anything' to the music - stop trying and enjoy the tune.  

re Ukebert below you actually do Ø chords all the time without thinking ...

  G row - pull adjacent F#_tonic A_minor C_b5th E₇ = F#min7,b5 = 'F#Ø' (or C#Ø on D row)

Last time I posted this - big arguments from people calling it D7- it can 'function' as a D7 as it has the same tri-tone C+F#
The really interesting thing was that the Norwegian tune was wandering along the associated locrian scale - what a miserable lot they are.

[Owen Woods]

Lester - just looked back at the chord chart. I hadn't expected half diminished (tho' can intimate this came up 'entirely naturally' in last w/e's Norwegian music).  However I don't see sus chords in there. As purely 'diatonic' chords these come up all the time in 'English' melodeonism, and were even used for morris by Kenneth Lovelace. Any chance of adding them in?  -     

Half diminished are lovely chords and can be really useful. Haven't incorporated them on box yet though. Sus chords are very useful.

The most useful bit of harmony that I put in is a low D with my index finger. Because of 4th button start I have it on the pull and push in the lower octave and it adds an awful lot of richness to the sound, especially against a C or a C/D in the bass.

[Gary P Chapin]

When I was a wee prat -- back about '91 -- I was playing whistle and flute at Irish sessions in St. Paul, Minnesota.  A frequent attendee was guitarist Dáithí Sproule, of Altan.  I was in no position to appreciate what I was getting at the time, but it did show me the wonders of harmony in the Irish setting (even though it's "not supposed" to be there).  This was before melodeon was even a twinkle in my eye.

I have to say, I do appreciate that English and French music seem so much more open to creative harmonies than the Irish scene.  I've been away from the Irish stuff for eleven years now -- I lost my Irish in a divorce  -- so I don't know if my impressions are still timely, or if they're local to my experience in Minnesota.

About the two chord trick:  if I find myself doing that, I'm quicker to start coming up with arpeggios or counter-melodies.

[Marje]

I think it's largely true that harmony is less integral to Irish music and song than it is to the English and Scottish equivalents. Certainly, in song, I've always understood that the Irish way of traditional unaccompanied singing includes a lot of ornamentation, which takes the place of chords or harmony, by putting the tune into some sort of harmonic context. I think this may be true of Irish music too, at least to some extent - they don't need or welcome much harmony, because it's all there in the melody. That's why Irish melodeon players often don't use the bass but just leave their left hand flapping around like a fish, while English melodeon style, playing less ornamented and fussy tunes, is much more dependent on chords and harmonies (ditto Scottish accordion).