Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[zubz]

...technique was tie bass strap to a ceiling joist and let the weight of the treble side hold it at full extension for a day)  Scary but effective.

Sorry, slight thread drift here, but would the, ahem, artisans here recommend such an approach? It does sound scary, but is it?

[Chris Ryall]

I (too) digress from the elbow - but only one joint up.  No one ever talks about the rhomboid muscle. Though I've patronised a gym for nearly 20 years -  never see it pictured or even mentioned on the "this machine tortures exercises this muscle diagrams displayed as you limp round Now I learned about rhomboids in anatomy class in the 70's and remember dissecting out a fairly decent chunk of meat on my way to the scapula . Medical training then sort of forgot them for a decade or so .. until I took up the melodeon  and  "discovered" my left rhomboid again : A little googling will reveal that Homo Sapiens evolved this this muscle (actually a pair) for the sole purpose of extending the bellows of the (perhaps inappropriately named) "squeezebox".  Furthermore - the more one ventures into the 'chromatic' realm and so play "on the pull" - he more it hurts!   M. Pignol defers  - teaching that one should close the bellows (eg nice strong biceps and 'pecs') .. and then let the left end fall naturally .. focussing on the right hand expression.  Despite this,  by Wednesday at one of his impro classes up at Francois Heim's place in the Cevennes all the pupil musician backs  and shoulders were aching  We set about an improvised  'massage class'. Violinists and clarinetters had all sort of little sore bits, trapeziuses, deltoids, yes, and some elbow problems. But the box players (almost universally) were sore just inside the shoulder blade - rhomboiditis.  And massage is just the right thing to fettle it Thus endeth the lesson

[ACE]

Hmmn, a spot of massage appeals to me, might nip out tonight and have one. There's a nice little Thia girl that advertises in the phone box down the road

For over 25 years I played a big soprani for morris and a couple of dances each week. I always stood up to play with two straps keeping the box high on my chest. Due to my occupation as a gardener and a hobby of riding a big radical custom motorcycle, I suffered a lot with a dead arm, but it never plagued me when I was playing, only later in the evening when trying to sleep. All cured now when they slit my wrists and relieved the muscular pressure on the nerves. Carpel tunnel syndrome if I remember right. It must also be caused by not getting your hands around the box properly. especially the left hand if you are trying to support the box with your arms instead of proper straps. With the little tiddler I have now (excelsior mini) no problems at all with one strap, but I am going to get another fitted just in case it causes problems later.

[savantuk]

...technique was tie bass strap to a ceiling joist and let the weight of the treble side hold it at full extension for a day)  Scary but effective.

Sorry, slight thread drift here, but would the, ahem, artisans here recommend such an approach? It does sound scary, but is it?

I found this old thread:  http://melodeon.aimoo.com/categroy/Stiff-Bellow-Action-1-234207.html

[zubz]

Thanks Doug. Seems it's ok to do then! 

[Steve C.]

Thread re-name:  How to Play in Rhomboid minor"   

[Kautilya]

Thread re-name:  How to Play in Rhomboid minor"   

The Shanghai remedy - 80 yr old at work and play:
Regular exercise at 4min 30

Even more interesting, The melodeon shoulder treatment at 4.52...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icGMeOw1tGU&feature=related

[Nick Hudis]

[quoteHmmn, a spot of massage appeals to me, might nip out tonight and have one. There's a nice little Thia girl that advertises in the phone box down the road][/quote]

Sorry to carp, but as a professional massage therapist who has over 20 years experience of working with musician's occupational injuries including tendonitis, comments like that about my profession really get my back up.


 

[Kautilya]

Why are these damn "quote" boxes so difficult to handle....

quote author=Nick Hudis link=topic=6082.msg90724#msg90724 date=1309214822]
 a spot of massage appeals to me, might nip out tonight and have one. There's a nice little Thia girl that advertises in the phone box down the road]

Sorry to carp, but as a professional massage therapist who has over 20 years experience of working with musician's occupational injuries including tendonitis, comments like that about my profession really get my back up.

I thort the carpals were in the hand somewhere not up the back - but then you learn something new everyday ( . 
This was four-month old post which perhaps I should not have resurrected, but started a new thread(

I recall some involvement and fairly intense litigation on RSI..(we lost the case I recall because the "experts" said the condition did not exist - we won later and there were some big payouts). But that was only 30 years ago.

We should all recognise that you and today's therapists do great work and are building on a  tradiition common in Central & South Asia and through to the Far East.

 Tel malish   (is and) has  been practised in our family  for some two hundred years to our knowledge -- back to a well documented period of the kingdom of Rewa.. What ACE referred to is part of that tradition and if one really pushed the historical Rewa boat out one could get back as far as the 12th century; and that would just be for starters as far as the therapy is concerned.

So keep on squeezing those mussels out of their tight hard shells!

[Nick Hudis]

We should all recognise that you and today's therapists do great work and are building on a  tradiition common in Central & South Asia and through to the Far East

Yes, and am honoured to have inherited a tradition of bodywork that traces directly back to Chinese, Japanese, Asian and Hawaiin masters. I resent it when that tradition is misrepresented as part of the "sex industry" even in jest.

But to stay on topic and perhaps close this thread.  With tendonitis prevention is far better than cure.  This involves exercise that keeps your body a) strong b) flexible c) properly coordinated d) relaxed e) naturally aligned in good posture.  There's a lot of ways to do this.  It may suprise you that what you do with your spine probably has the greatest influence on whether you develop problems in your arms.

Diet, smoking, fatigue, drugs, medication even genetics can all have an influences on how readily the body goes down an inflammatory path.

It also involves developing a thoughtful and disciplined approach to how you hold the instrument and how you play.  Playing an instrument is a physical activity and anyone who aspires to play their best does well to regard themselves as an  musical athlete and treat their body with the same care and respect that a top Olympian or tennis player would.

If tendonitis does set in, it is imperative that you stop aggravating it.  Often this means rest (even abstinence from playing  ).  Everyone has there favourite stuff to rub on (some of the liniments from Chinese martial arts are magical in effect) but simple things like alternate hot and cold compresses are often more effective.  Massage, physio, osteopathy etc can be helpful to speed the healing process.  When the acute phase has passed then you can move on to the preventive phase.

Concerning Ibuprofen etc, yes it works to a degree but bear in mind that in the UK alone 200,000 people a year die from the long term side effects of such drugs.......

Take tendonitis seriously.  It easily becomes chronic, and when there is significant scarring of the tendon sheath becomes self perpetuating.  It can evolve into an extremely painful and debilitating point at which even surgery (the last ditch solution) is ineffective. 

I have a put a few simple safe therapeutic exercises on my blog recently www.integramassage.wordpress.com and more will follow.  I am always happy to offer my perspective on musician's health issues to forum members via email or pm.

[Theo]

As an occasional client of Nick I can vouch for his professionalism. 

[zubz]

Building on Nick's comments and overall perspective, I wonder if anyone here has experience of the Alexander Technique? I only know a little about it, but I understand it is particularly used by musicians, and apparently can work wonders.

As Nick says "Prevention is far better than cure", and this won't apply only to tendonitis. So, any Alexander experiences?

[Marje]

I've been reading all this with interest as I have a recurrent problem in my right arm/elbow. It used to arise in all sorts of situations, but now it occurs mainly with melodeon playing. Writing by hand, or holding anything like a glass in my right hand for any length of time, can also bring it on. Oh, and doing tapestry in the evenings didn't help.
I'm trying not to overdo playing at sessions or practice. In between tunes I try to relax and shake my arm, and massage it a bit. If it stays painful I may switch to playing recorder, although that doesn't entirely rest the muscles.
When it was at its worst, I found that I'd been adding to the problem by the way I was lying at night. I often lie on my right side and I had the habit of tucking my elbow under my waist (as in the "recovery" position). When I stopped doing that, or anything else that constricted my right arm in the night, I found that things got a lot better.
I also reviewed my computer habits and learned not to clutch at the mouse all the time as if it was trying to escape. It's a wireless mouse, so sometimes I even used to operate it on a book on my knee, which was less stressful to the muscles than keeping it on the desk.
So in a nutshell: wiggle and relax your arm often, don't write by hand, put your glass down, arrange your arm in a safe place as you're going to sleep, let go of the mouse, and give up the tapestry. Alternatively you could give up melodeon, but that is not likely to be an option for anyone here.

[Graham Spencer]

I wonder how much the left elbow problem is related to bellows technique.  I remember many, many years ago, when I first picked up a PA and before I was enlightened and switched to diatonic, I was advised by a number of experienced players never to allow the bellows to open more than a third of its full stretch. I didn't find this too difficult because, as a guitarist & electric bass player, I was used to playing with my left elbow close in to the body.  I transferred this approach to the melodeon, and try to use as little of the bellows as I can reasonably get away with (which of course means being fairly adept with the air button).  Surely using armfuls of bellows must put more strain on the elbow?  I've recently noticed several players who, prior to starting a tune, extend the bellows to about 2/3 or 3/4 full stretch, and from there on they always seem to be fighting against the instrument rather than working with it, and making things doubly difficult for themselves by not using the air-button as often as they might.  It must waste a lot of energy.  Just a thought............

[Chris Brimley]

It also involves developing a thoughtful and disciplined approach to how you hold the instrument and how you play.  

I was interested in this comment, Nick.   Is it true to say that if during playing you find certain actions or stances even slightly uncomfortable then they are probably going to give you RSI in due course?

Regarding GPS's bellows technique comment, I've also noticed that top players not only use small movements if they can, but also they tend to reduce bellows wobble to a minimum, which I think gives benefits in RHS stability, as well as perhaps in reducing muscle effort.

[Nick Hudis]

I wonder if anyone here has experience of the Alexander Technique?

I had Alexander Lessons for about a year 20 years ago.  At the very least it helped me to become aware of, and release unconscious tension while I was playing. Like all professions, Alexander teachers vary in their skill.  There are some who who have a great deal of practical experience of working with musicians.  The essence of Alexander Technique is that the teacher uses their hands and simple movements and positions to guide the student into a naturally stable and relaxed posture in which actions can be done with minimum counterproductive tension and effort.  Its all about learning to do through not doing.

And this is where the difficulties lie with the technique, it can be rather mystical and obscure in its approach.  I'll never forget my first Alexander Teacher describing it as a "non-verbal-pyscho-physical-learning-experience" and she wasn't  joking.

The principles of posture and body use found in Alexander are also accessible through other disciplines: Tai Chi, some kind of Yoga, Pilates to a limited extent.  Personally I've probably learned more through 20 years of tai chi and kung fu practice.

The core exercise in Alexander is called "semi supine position".  I've done a blog article with a video describing it:

http://integramassage.wordpress.com/2011/06/11/the-passive-back-release/

Is it true to say that if during playing you find certain actions or stances even slightly uncomfortable then they are probably going to give you RSI in due course?

Mmm yes and no..... The body learns and gains strength by being challenged and some times those challenges may lead to discomfort, so in the early stages and when mastering a new technique or new instrument some soreness or stiffness is natural, just like if you go to the gym and pump some iron.

But any persistent discomfort should be the subject of investigation and exploration particularly if you've got the basics of holding the box and playing and you are not doing overlong playing sessions.

A good way forward is to play something very slow and simple and just to be aware of the sensations throughout your body.  Often simple awareness can initiate relaxation, like if you suddenly discover your left shoulder is held tense.  you can experiment with playing more and more relaxed, with bigger or smaller movements, with initiating a movement from a different joint etc

The aim is not to be relaxed like floppy, wimpy and dead! Playing an instrument requires a dynamic interchange between relaxation and tension.  You NEED some tension to push a button down or move the bellows.  Its all about finding the appropriate degree of tension in the appropriate bit of your body and being able to relax the tension when it is no longer needed.

This is where most RSI problems arise.  We use too much tension, We create tension in parts of the body where it is not needed or where it fights against what we are doing, and we hold on to the tension after it has done its job.

A last little point.  Big movements are not always tense, and small movements are not always relaxed.  small tense movements are often what causes strain.  That's why the computer mouse does so much damage.  I got a lot of benefit in my guitar playing days by practicing with big expansive but relaxed movements in which I could clearly feel the cycle of tension and relaxation.  Of course when performing I just let nature take its course and my hands found the appropriate movement which was (on a good day), economical efficient and relaxed.

And oh yes... the best way to be tense throughout  your body is to hold or restrict your breathing.  Try playing and just be aware of the in and out of your breath.  You may surprise yourself.

Hope all that is some use folks.

[zubz]

Thank you so much Nick - very helpful answers. The video & instructions on your site are most helpful too. Thanks.

[Lester]

Nick,

Re:

Concerning Ibuprofen etc, yes it works to a degree but bear in mind that in the UK alone 200,000 people a year die from the long term side effects of such drugs.......

Where does this data come from as I find it a high figure given the accepted (from gov statistics on the net) that smoking is said to cause ~110,000 death per year. I would be interested in any reading as I am about to attend at the docs for a frozen shoulder and guess NSAIDs will be on offer.

[Alison Scott]

Yup. Given that there are about 500k deaths per year *in total* in England and Wales, this must be off by at least a couple of orders of magnitude. A quick Google suggests that the correct figure for the UK is 2,500. Still worth bearing in mind.

[Anahata]

Where does this data come from as I find it a high figure given the accepted (from gov statistics on the net) that smoking is said to cause ~110,000 death per year. I would be interested in any reading as I am about to attend at the docs for a frozen shoulder and guess NSAIDs will be on offer.

A frozen shoulder is what Tom McConville had when he discovered Alexander Technique. I don't think he needed any drugs after that. He gave a very convincing talk about it at Whitby Folk Week a few years ago.