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Author Topic: Any advice on how to play a D/D# melodeon?  (Read 3820 times)

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BoxedEars

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Any advice on how to play a D/D# melodeon?
« on: March 07, 2011, 05:00:28 PM »

First things first.
Hi folks! I'm new here so, please be gentle!!  ;)

A couple of months ago I decided to try and learn my dad's old Casalli Verona D/D#. Since then I have managed to muddle through a few tunes but I seem to have hit a bit of a sleeping elephant when it comes to which key to play in. I read somewhere the likes of Tony McMahon played but played it like a C#/D. I have tried playing in the few keys I know but I can't seem to get the basses to sound right or any sort of fluency. It may be my sketchy (but slowly improving) musical knowledge letting me down but all and any advice most welcome.

Cheers!
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GbH

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Re: Any advice on how to play a D/D# melodeon?
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2011, 07:39:59 PM »

Hi - and welcome.  As there have been no other replies, I guess I could at least make the following suggestion as a start.

Firstly, you mention that you're having trouble with the basses.  Is that because you're not getting the notes that you're looking for, or something else?  If it's the former, then I'd suggest figuring out what bass/chord notes are actually on your instrument and perhaps posting those here, as that might help others to help you better.  Whilst there do seem to be some standards for bass notes on such instruments, there's no guarantee that any one box will necessarily follow them.

Also, a D/D# instrument would seem to be relatively unusual format to have - so I guess you need to decide whether you're going to learn it as your native instrument, or whether you're going to treat it as a transposing instrument and, as you mentioned, play it as if it were really tuned in some other way.  If you're just starting out with it, I guess this could potentially be a confusing choice!  I guess it could come down to how you like to learn, whether you play with others and whether you plan to acquire other boxes at a later date.

I don't play instruments with this type of 'semitone' system myself, so I suspect that someone who does will be able to offer some more specific advice later...
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Gary P Chapin

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Re: Any advice on how to play a D/D# melodeon?
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2011, 08:00:10 PM »

I also don't play a semitone system, but I don't see any reason why a D/D# wouldn't work out -- depending on the type of music you want to play.  I do wonder why it fell out of favor after a flurry of enthusiasm in the '90s.  I would be interested in hearing Tony McMahon's reasoning.  Having the outside row as "home" makes as much sense as having the inside row.  At the very least, you've got a D melodeon (I'd like one of those!) with a lot of sharps and flats!

But GbH is right about the basses.  I have no idea what the basses are and without knowing that, can't really help.

Also, welcome.
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mory

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Re: Any advice on how to play a D/D# melodeon?
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2011, 08:24:46 PM »

Hi as suggested bass layout would help but in the mean time, in the west of Ireland DD# is popular and there are many sessions in D# with the fiddles tuning up to it, but its just as easy to play the box as D, that includes the related keys G A etc, or G# A# etc, if in D# mode, some players have Melodeon style bass ie, Root and Dominant for each row and others have what they can for one key in D that would be maybe D A G E B F# quite often without thirds in a sort of modal way allowing Major or minor chords to be played I'm sending you a PM if you want to chat more. ps WELCOME
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 08:36:23 PM by mory »
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Dally

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Re: Any advice on how to play a D/D# melodeon?
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2011, 09:16:50 PM »

I'm just learning the basses on my C#D.  I don't think the set up on my box, which I bought second hand, is "normal" because both the two bottom pairs play D on the squeeze, but different chords on the pull.  They are major chords at any rate.  The top two pair sound various minor chords.  Sorry I can't tell you what they are, exactly, because I'm learning by ear, experimenting with what sounds good, when.
But, someone on this forum gave me the sage advice to leave off the basses and get a guitar player.  Nevertheless, it's a lot of fun to try to emulate Brendan Begley's use of the basses:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv2XjpuqtyA

Someone else might know for sure, but I heard Paudie O'Connor plays either a CC# or DD#.  Maybe someone else can tell for sure by watching this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XtIU5iWVbE
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Stiamh

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Re: Any advice on how to play a D/D# melodeon?
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2011, 09:25:40 PM »

Hi BoxedEars

We've discussed this topic before. This thread might be of interest. http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,2735.0

(Some of the posts in that thread appear to be empty. As the result of a board software upgrade, any older posts containing special characters disappear. You can read the content of these empty messages by pressing the "Quote" button.)

Steve

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Re: Any advice on how to play a D/D# melodeon?
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2011, 02:05:28 AM »

I've always rather fancied D/D# playing outside in. Mainly because this way you've got reversals for D and G, which are Important Notes. Tom's bass layout I recall was fairly well thought out, it could well be that your bass layout is one which works less well.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 02:07:57 AM by ukebert »
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Stiamh

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Re: Any advice on how to play a D/D# melodeon?
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2011, 12:51:18 PM »

I teach a class of C#/D students and one of the participants has a magnificent 9-coupler Paolo Soprani in D/D#, so in attempting to work around all the stuff I am showing the others, I am getting some insight into how to play the system.

The D and G reversals do open up some interesting possibilities for phrasing not available on C#/D but so far I remain convinced that for Irish music at least playing a halfstep system inside-out offers more advantages. Otherwise I'm sure that more than 0.00005% of Irish players would be playing outside-in*. BoxedEars, you should experiment with both ways of playing - that is, also try playing on the D# row as if it were D - so that you can decide for yourself.

The basses on my student's Paolo are confusing - half of them are designed for the D# row and the other half for the D row. You need to map out exactly what you have - using a piano or with the help of a more experienced player.


* Edit: Excluding the smallish number of those, chiefly in the US and Québec, who play D/C#.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2011, 12:55:11 PM by Steve Jones »
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Gary P Chapin

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Re: Any advice on how to play a D/D# melodeon?
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2011, 01:03:38 PM »

I remain convinced that for Irish music at least playing a halfstep system inside-out offers more advantages.
I'm not a half-step player, but this is very interesting to me.  Could you elaborate on this statement?  Not the argument about which has more advantages, but just what advantages you see on the inside-out system.
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LDbosca

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Re: Any advice on how to play a D/D# melodeon?
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2011, 01:32:37 PM »

I remain convinced that for Irish music at least playing a halfstep system inside-out offers more advantages.
I'm not a half-step player, but this is very interesting to me.  Could you elaborate on this statement?  Not the argument about which has more advantages, but just what advantages you see on the inside-out system.

The main one to which Steve is probably referring would be the ease of playing rolls. These ornaments are fundamental to Irish music and are executed on a B/C or C#/D instrument by playing a note on the inside row, playing a grace note above it(usually on the outside row or sometimes the inside), playing the note again, playing the note semitone below it on the ouside row and returning to the note.

Unclear? I thought so.....like this then:

A B A G# A

The way it's performed gives it quite a specific effect and it doesn't really work on the outside row, which is why almost no B/C players play F# rolls. Neither do D/C# players. Joe Derrane very occasionally chances one but it still sounds nothing like it would on an inside-out box.

Why doesn't it work on the outside row? You play the melody note with your middle finger and the grace notes with your index and ring fingers...they're too short to reach in easily!

Stiamh

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Re: Any advice on how to play a D/D# melodeon?
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2011, 08:10:21 PM »

Yes, historically I think rolls are a huge part of why the B/C system was embraced so enthusiastically by Irish players from Paddy O'Brien onwards.

I myself don't use them very much though. For me it's about accessibility of the accidental notes. Remember that on a halfstep box you have one main row (the C row for B/C players and the D row for C#/D) and you use notes from the other row less frequently. Playing on the inside as your main row means that the notes you grab from the other row are under, rather than beyond, your fingers, and to me this seems much more natural than extending a finger out to an inner row. Certainly I think that sliding back and forth from inner to outer is much easier. (The neat little trick of emulating a slide or glissando by moving very quickly from a semitone below to the main note is also very easy this way too.)

D/G players will probably tell me that's only because I'm used to this layout, and while there may be some truth to it, I wouldn't recommend anyone to go looking for an outside-in layout to play Irish music. As BoxedEars already has one, that's a different matter, but he should know he'll be ploughing pretty much a lone furrow - along with my student and a few others. So it might depend on how happy he is teaching himself....

BoxedEars

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Re: Any advice on how to play a D/D# melodeon?
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2011, 03:56:29 PM »


Here it is at last, after some experimenting with a keyboard, the long-awaited bass layout. Apologies for the delay, other things got in the way :|glug !

Going Bottom-Top;

(Push/Draw)
                  

Outside                                Inside

Eb (octave apart)/Bb (octave apart)         G (octave)/G (octave)
Eb (chord)/Bb (chord)                       G (chord)/G (chord)

D (octave)/A (octave)                       F# (octave)/B (octave)
Dmaj (chord)/Amaj (chord)                    F# (chord)/Bm (chord)

I also mapped out the notes on the treble side to help me get to know the instrument better.

I've always rather fancied D/D# playing outside in. Mainly because this way you've got reversals for D and G, which are Important Notes. Tom's bass layout I recall was fairly well thought out, it could well be that your bass layout is one which works less well.
Playing on the inside as your main row means that the notes you grab from the other row are under, rather than beyond, your fingers, and to me this seems much more natural than extending a finger out to an inner row.

I started off by learning it Outside in but recently discovered it makes more sense to play it inside out as you don't have to twist your ring or middle finger under the other fingers to reach notes you need especially D and G.
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Stiamh

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Re: Any advice on how to play a D/D# melodeon?
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2011, 06:17:33 PM »

Actually your bass layout is 75% in favour of your D row, not 50%. If you changed the Eb/Bb pair to A/E you'd have a standard C#/D layout, although the buttons are placed differently.

So if you favour playing inside-out and want to use the left hand, you have a difficult decision ahead of you: either change all your basses, or get another box...

mory

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Re: Any advice on how to play a D/D# melodeon?
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2011, 11:06:33 AM »

Is there no way of finding out how your dad used it ? sounds like its set up for playing in both keys to me as I posted earlier, have a good trawl on you tube maybe catch some melodeon (1 Row ) players see what they do with the bass, Good Luck
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Stiamh

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Re: Any advice on how to play a D/D# melodeon?
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2011, 09:30:48 PM »

Inspired by this discussion, and because I have more time than usual (nursing a broken ankle) I've been exploring outside-in playing a bit more for the last few days. Have to admit that some tunes work out pretty neatly using the push G and pull D to the full. Was having fun with the Floggin' Reel, nearly all on the pull with a few nicely placed push triangles to compensate.  (:)

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Re: Any advice on how to play a D/D# melodeon?
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2011, 02:40:01 PM »

Inspired by this discussion, and because I have more time than usual (nursing a broken ankle) I've been exploring outside-in playing a bit more for the last few days. Have to admit that some tunes work out pretty neatly using the push G and pull D to the full. Was having fun with the Floggin' Reel, nearly all on the pull with a few nicely placed push triangles to compensate.  (:)

 ;D
(Before disappearing back into my hexagonal cave, though I'm actually refurbishing a venerable G/C pokerwork for a friend at present.)
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