Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5]   Go Down

Author Topic: Melodeon Tablature (or, "how did you do that?")  (Read 25189 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Martin J

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 902
  • Poole, Dorset
Re: Melodeon Tablature (or, "how did you do that?")
« Reply #80 on: March 16, 2011, 07:18:00 PM »

Chris, I think you've answered your own question.  It is the button pattern that is important not which fingers to use.  As Steve says, he uses what is comfortable to him and I think that's as it should be.

On thread then how best to convey to someone else what the button pattern is that you wish to share then simplest seems best.  Stave for treble, upper and lower case for bass.  Sort out your own fingers.  Nature's pain response will tell you if you are very wrong  ;)
Logged
Castagnari, Weltmeister, Giustozzi, Streb, too many Hohners.  No Strings Attached ceilidh band

Bob Ellis

  • Hero?....Where's my medal, then?
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2878
  • Ain't I cute?
Re: Melodeon Tablature (or, "how did you do that?")
« Reply #81 on: March 16, 2011, 11:03:43 PM »

As Chris B and Steve J have both said, there are occasions when an unusual pattern of fingering is needed to play a particular phrase smoothly and it would be helpful to be able to make a note of that pattern. This is one argument in favour of a system of notation where the numbers refer to fingers rather than buttons (the position of buttons on a box remains constant, but which finger to use for a particular note does not). As I have mentioned before, another argument is that beginners are often very unsure of which fingers to use and therefore a notation system that indicates that would help them. This may be one reason why so many beginners have found Mally's instructional books useful over the years. Of course, such a system will not suit everyone, but, for those who might be interested, I have attached an example of the system I use.

The sheet music, of course, indicates which note to play, the duration of the note etc. The melodeon notation is probably self-evident, but, in case it isn't, the line above the stave is for the melody and uses a letter to indicate the row on which the note is to be played and a number to indicate the finger to be used. The line below the stave is for the basses and uses lower case letters for fundamental notes and capital letters for chords. A lower case letter and a capital are used together when the fundamental and the chord are to be played simultaneously. For both the melody and the basses, notes to be played on the pull are underlined and those to be played on the push are not. I use a smaller font for grace notes and other optional ornaments, but that is just a personal idiosyncrasy.

I have attached this tune, rather than any other, for two reasons. Firstly, it is an example of a tune where the time signature changes (albeit briefly), which is the topic of another current thread. Secondly, I am puzzled as to why it was written down with three sharps (key of A or F# minor) rather than two sharps, when all the G notes are naturals rather than sharps. Furthermore it resolves on a B, which makes me think that the tune is in B minor, which would normally be written with two sharps. But perhaps I am wrong and it is in one of those modes that I don't understand fully.  I would be grateful if someone could explain.
Logged
Bob in beautiful Wensleydale, Les Panards Dansants, Crook Morris and the Loose Knit Band.
Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Castagnari 1914 D/G; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, pre-war Hohner Bb/F; Acadian one-row in D.

Stiamh

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3538
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Re: Melodeon Tablature (or, "how did you do that?")
« Reply #82 on: March 17, 2011, 12:29:48 AM »

Secondly, I am puzzled as to why it was written down with three sharps (key of A or F# minor) rather than two sharps, when all the G notes are naturals rather than sharps. Furthermore it resolves on a B, which makes me think that the tune is in B minor, which would normally be written with two sharps.

The three sharps with all the Gs being marked natural is fairly common in stuff notated by people who don't really believe in modes. (Can't believe I'm jumping into a discussion about modes before Chris Ryall  ;)  ) Such people think, oh it must be in A major, and the natural Gs are accidentals. When most folkies would say it's in A mixolydian, meaning A with a flattened seventh, ergo two sharps.

Bob, you're in danger of falling into a similar trap yourself by assuming that just because it ends on B, it ought to be in B minor.... classical thinking.

I have come to the conclusion that modes are an imperfect answer to all the conundrums of tonality in folk tunes. Quite a few Irish tunes that one might easily assume to be in Dorian or Mixolydian have other features that don't really fit that pattern and no doubt this applies to tunes from other traditions. So while I describe things as being in this or that mode for convenience, I do so with mental reservations.

I haven't tried playing your tune, but without whatever conclusions that might lead me to about its real tonality, I'd just say, put a key signature of two sharps and let others worry about what box to fit it into.  :|glug

Edit: trying to hum the tune from the music, it reminds me of some of those Irish tunes I alluded to above, ones that land on a final note that, given the way the tune starts and develops, is unexpected, at least to a conventional musical mind. (A familiar example to people here might be the American tune Over the Waterfall, since IIRC that tune shows all the appearances of being in D major but resolves on G.) Tomas O Canainn, expanding on the work of Sean O Riada, calls these "tunes with complex tonalities" and proposes a system for determining their tonic, or home note, by weighting notes in the tune depending on their frequency or position and crucial points. This in his 1970s book "Traditional Music in Ireland". All very interesting, but... yeah yeah.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 12:40:03 AM by Steve Jones »
Logged

diatosoldo

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 456
  • Castagnari Benny, Dino Baffetti 85LN
    • http://www.youtube.com/user/diatosoldo
Re: Melodeon Tablature (or, "how did you do that?")
« Reply #83 on: March 17, 2011, 06:33:26 AM »


Maybe this could help ? it looks like it, doesn't it ?

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xbhvau_les-gnous-les-forgerons-aiment-le-v_music

Logged
♫ ♪  I'm french ♫ ♪
G/C Castagnari Benny
A/D Dino Baffetti 85LN
A/D Thierry Bennetoux
http://www.youtube.com/user/diatosoldo

Chris Brimley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2019
Re: Melodeon Tablature (or, "how did you do that?")
« Reply #84 on: March 17, 2011, 11:04:10 AM »

Bob, I tried playing your tune from your score, and it's an unfamiliar tune to me, so I found it a good test.  I do quite like your annotations, and I think that your system is economical.  On the other hand I did find that I was getting lost with trying to interpret lots of information at once, and I eventually found it easier to play from just the dots and chords, looking at the top line when I was unsure how to play it.  One thing I didn't find easy was simultaneously processing the information with a note D, a chord D, and a row D - OK that example would be easy, but other combinations were more confusing.  Maybe practice would ease this.

If I were annotating this tune for myself using your system, I might just put a few annotations in, over the tricky or alternative fingering passages, rather than the whole lot.  But I do think that with a bit of study, this is a useful way of conveying more about how a tune is to be played. 

Something else with your system that I thought might be useful is maybe a finger slide indicator on the top line, say -, /, or \, or even l with a 3-row box.
Logged

Bob Ellis

  • Hero?....Where's my medal, then?
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2878
  • Ain't I cute?
Re: Melodeon Tablature (or, "how did you do that?")
« Reply #85 on: March 17, 2011, 12:20:24 PM »

Thanks for your comments, Chris. I included the whole notation to show how I would write it out for a beginner (although this is not a beginner's tune), but when using the notation for myself I would only note down difficult or unusual passages.

I think it takes time to get used to any system, so I am encouraged that you followed it without too many problems. Coming to it fresh, it is probably best to use the dots and the notation above the line for the right-hand fingering first to get that pattern in one's mind and then add the bass line when you no longer need to look at the top line. As a system for sight-reading, I agree that there would be too much to take in at once, but it was not intended for that. Its purpose was to record all the relevant information so that one can refer back to whichever bit one needs at any given moment. Even the beginners with whom I have used it seem to pick it up very quickly.

I appreciate your suggestion about a symbol to indicate a finger slide. It is a good idea and I shall think about the best way to incorporate it.
Logged
Bob in beautiful Wensleydale, Les Panards Dansants, Crook Morris and the Loose Knit Band.
Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Castagnari 1914 D/G; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, pre-war Hohner Bb/F; Acadian one-row in D.

Gary P Chapin

  • L'Accordéonaire
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1930
  • We are all the Free Reed Liberation Orchestra
    • l'Accordéonaire
Re: Melodeon Tablature (or, "how did you do that?")
« Reply #86 on: March 17, 2011, 01:24:57 PM »

Bob, great work.  Very interesting.  I'm going to go against the consensus of the group and say I prefer a tab that is not pitch specific, but shows buttons for a typical system and direction.  One of the magical things, to me, of these instruments, is the transferability of fingerings to different keys (instruments).  So, using Corgeron or CADB tab, I can pick up any of my boxes and learn the frame of the tune.  Even if it's not in the key of the dots, or the key that other people play in, I can fix that by picking up another box.

Just my druthers.  I'm still very interested by this project.
Logged
Read the l'Accordéonaire French music blog: http://accordeonaire.com/
The Bal Folk Tune Book Project: https://accordeonaire.com/bal-folk-tune-book-project/
The Free Reed Liberation Orchestra: https://accordeonaire.com/the-free-reed-liberation-orchestra/

Chris Harris

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
    • The Bush Inn, A Proper Pub!
Re: Melodeon Tablature (or, "how did you do that?")
« Reply #87 on: October 29, 2020, 11:53:48 AM »

I spent some time some years ago working on a system to implement something very similar to the French system in abc. It made use of the w: feature to put button numbers under the notation. I decided it was too complicated to pursue.
Hi Bill, can you please post the abc for the Dorchester Hornpipe so I can see how you used the lyrics to show the tablature, I particularly want to know how ...
you drew the horizontal lines 
and included |>< and |<> before the first word, as the w: follows the dots usually.

Many Thanks
PS I am still looking for a Dino Baffeti Black Pearl III.....
Logged
I now have a 4th button start Dino Baffetti Black Pearl III, awaiting modification to Anahata layout. I have a 23 button D/G with fourth button start that apart from no badge, looks like a Sandpiper Dunlin III, already converted to Anahata layout.
I was looking for a G/C box because I like French tunes and I was tempted by an almost new Hohner Pokerwork for 500 euros at a large music store in Normandy. However I saw a Lorenzy on Facebook Marketplace and I spent a lovely morning driving into Swiss Normandy and Bought it. I love it, it was cheap (392 euros new), out of tune (from new I think) but lovely to play!

Steve_freereeder

  • Content Manager
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7511
  • MAD is inevitable. Keep Calm and Carry On
    • Lizzie Dripping
Re: Melodeon Tablature (or, "how did you do that?")
« Reply #88 on: October 29, 2020, 12:50:40 PM »

I spent some time some years ago working on a system to implement something very similar to the French system in abc. It made use of the w: feature to put button numbers under the notation. I decided it was too complicated to pursue.
Hi Bill, can you please post the abc for the Dorchester Hornpipe so I can see how you used the lyrics to show the tablature, I particularly want to know how ...
you drew the horizontal lines 
and included |>< and |<> before the first word, as the w: follows the dots usually.

Many Thanks
PS I am still looking for a Dino Baffeti Black Pearl III.....
Chris,
Bill's post is over 9 years old and he hasn't been active on this forum since April 2019.

Looking at his example, with the horizontal lines and the symbols you are enquiring about, I'm almost certain that it was not done using ABC. I've done similar tablature in a couple of ways:

1. Importing a PDF of ABC music into Powerpoint, then using the drawing and text tools in Powerpoint to make the lines and fingering text.

2. These days I would use MuseScore. You can either enter the notation directly or you can import ABC into MuseScore if you don't want to do that. MuseScore also has comprehensive line drawing and text options too, which are very useful for doing those fingering tablatures. 
Logged
Steve
Sheffield, UK.
www.lizziedripping.org.uk

Chris Harris

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
    • The Bush Inn, A Proper Pub!
Re: Melodeon Tablature (or, "how did you do that?")
« Reply #89 on: October 29, 2020, 02:34:08 PM »

I spent some time some years ago working on a system to implement something very similar to the French system in abc. It made use of the w: feature to put button numbers under the notation. I decided it was too complicated to pursue.
Hi Bill, can you please post the abc for the Dorchester Hornpipe so I can see how you used the lyrics to show the tablature, I particularly want to know how ...
you drew the horizontal lines 
and included |>< and |<> before the first word, as the w: follows the dots usually.

Many Thanks
PS I am still looking for a Dino Baffeti Black Pearl III.....
Chris,
Bill's post is over 9 years old and he hasn't been active on this forum since April 2019.

Looking at his example, with the horizontal lines and the symbols you are enquiring about, I'm almost certain that it was not done using ABC. I've done similar tablature in a couple of ways:

1. Importing a PDF of ABC music into Powerpoint, then using the drawing and text tools in Powerpoint to make the lines and fingering text.

2. These days I would use MuseScore. You can either enter the notation directly or you can import ABC into MuseScore if you don't want to do that. MuseScore also has comprehensive line drawing and text options too, which are very useful for doing those fingering tablatures.

Thanks Steve, Bill does say he uses the w: feature to put the button numbers under the notation, so he may possibly have used abc, perhaps with some clever extention.
regards, Chris
Logged
I now have a 4th button start Dino Baffetti Black Pearl III, awaiting modification to Anahata layout. I have a 23 button D/G with fourth button start that apart from no badge, looks like a Sandpiper Dunlin III, already converted to Anahata layout.
I was looking for a G/C box because I like French tunes and I was tempted by an almost new Hohner Pokerwork for 500 euros at a large music store in Normandy. However I saw a Lorenzy on Facebook Marketplace and I spent a lovely morning driving into Swiss Normandy and Bought it. I love it, it was cheap (392 euros new), out of tune (from new I think) but lovely to play!

Steve_freereeder

  • Content Manager
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7511
  • MAD is inevitable. Keep Calm and Carry On
    • Lizzie Dripping
Re: Melodeon Tablature (or, "how did you do that?")
« Reply #90 on: October 29, 2020, 03:34:19 PM »

Thanks Steve, Bill does say he uses the w: feature to put the button numbers under the notation, so he may possibly have used abc, perhaps with some clever extention.
Yes, the w: (lyrics) function would work, although it would be a bit of a faff to get the off-set numbers on different levels for the different rows. I still don't think you have the option in ABC to draw horizontal lines, although I may be wrong. Overall, it's much simpler in MuseScore. ;)
Logged
Steve
Sheffield, UK.
www.lizziedripping.org.uk

Tone Dumb Greg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4929
    • Dartmoor Border Morris
Re: Melodeon Tablature (or, "how did you do that?")
« Reply #91 on: October 29, 2020, 10:52:23 PM »

Just for interest, attached is a pdf of a score with DG TAB done in Myriad's Harmony Assistant. The scoring software I used all the time until I discovered ABC.
It was created, completely automatically,  from an imported ABC file.
The automatic choices can be quirky, but they can be edited to your preferred ones very easily.
It shows the two rows separately.
There is a very configurable table defining the available notes and chords. Push notes have an underscore, by default. This can be edited to your preferred symbol. I have just noticed it seems to default to my pull D, but this can be edited.
Chord basses are lower case. Chords are upper case (my choice).
If you don't have chords defined in the score it allocates them automatically, if rather quirkily.
I printed it to pdf. I needed to set margins for a better look, but it's easy to improve it.

This is my first attempt. I never bothered using this before (actually, I never even looked at it properly), but this post reminded me it was there. If I was going to use it seriously I would spend a bit more time setting it up. e.g., I just noticed the chords didn't say whether they were major or minor and I would probably use different symbols for push and pull. It seems to work pretty well, though and the tab is easy to understand.
Logged
Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

Roger Hare

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 828
  • Urmston, Lancashire, U.K.
Re: Melodeon Tablature (or, "how did you do that?")
« Reply #92 on: October 30, 2020, 06:00:28 AM »

About three years ago, user 'David' initiated this thread.

It discusses a Python script which adds 'Ed Rennie' style tabs to a simple ABC file, using the ABC w: field as discussed in a couple of
the previous posts.

David's home page is here and the software is lodged on Github here.

I don't know if David has continued development, but his project may be of interest in the light of this discussion?

------
Inspired by this project (and another, Java based application for concertina), I've spent a significant amount of time developing an equivalent program for concertina.
Initially I used ABC 'text annotations' to insert the tabs, but I too have settled on the lyric model, using the ABC w: field. This program is written in Icon. The program
is 'stand-alone' (no need to install Python or Java) and will add tabs in a variety of key signatures (including 'modal' keys) for G/D and C/G concertina, using simple
'along-the-row' and 'cross-row' strategies. It will also add simple 'note names' (see the Python application mentioned above). I'm thinking of 'reverse-engineering'
my program to do the same as David's original - that is add Ed Rennie tabs for a 2-row D/G melodeon...

The tabs are easy to understand, and I use it all the time. I guess it's at about the same stage of development as the application mentioned by Tone Dumb Greg
in the previous post...

The attached image shows a simple tune after 'tabbing' - both the modified ABC and the resultant score...
« Last Edit: October 30, 2020, 09:35:28 AM by Roger Hare »
Logged
For more about Manchester Morris, The Beech Band Folk Club or anything else,  please use the private messaging facility.
My (large) ABC Tune Book is here.

Chris Marriott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1019
Re: Melodeon Tablature (or, "how did you do that?")
« Reply #93 on: November 05, 2020, 12:05:09 PM »

For me one thing that's missing from many methods is more detail on how the basses are played.  When you want to get away from Oom-pah basses, just putting "G" on the first bar and "D" on the second doesn't tell you anything useful. And for me the bass end is a melodic line, with chords to fill in when I can't think of anything better, or as a sort of off-beat percussion hit between bass notes.

I know this is a VERY old post, but coming to the melodeon from the accordion I've been a little surprised that the bass line is generally not notated in melodeon music. In scores for the accordion, the right-hand treble (melody) is notated on the treble clef, and the left-hand accompaniment on the bass clef, the convention being that bass notes are written below the centre line of the bass clef, and chords above the centre line. It's a notation convention that works well. I know the melodeon and accordion aren't the same instrument, but being able to see the accompaniment notated is something I personally find very useful.

Chris
Logged
Chris

Castagnari Marie-Nicole, English Concertina and Piano Accordion.

Tone Dumb Greg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4929
    • Dartmoor Border Morris
Re: Melodeon Tablature (or, "how did you do that?")
« Reply #94 on: November 05, 2020, 05:40:15 PM »

For me one thing that's missing from many methods is more detail on how the basses are played.  When you want to get away from Oom-pah basses, just putting "G" on the first bar and "D" on the second doesn't tell you anything useful. And for me the bass end is a melodic line, with chords to fill in when I can't think of anything better, or as a sort of off-beat percussion hit between bass notes.

I know this is a VERY old post, but coming to the melodeon from the accordion I've been a little surprised that the bass line is generally not notated in melodeon music. In scores for the accordion, the right-hand treble (melody) is notated on the treble clef, and the left-hand accompaniment on the bass clef, the convention being that bass notes are written below the centre line of the bass clef, and chords above the centre line. It's a notation convention that works well. I know the melodeon and accordion aren't the same instrument, but being able to see the accompaniment notated is something I personally find very useful.

Chris

Melodeon basses are probably more of a personal choice than accordions, but if you look at the chords, there is a possibility of putting chords as upper case and basses as lower case. A lot of people do this, or something similar (maybe vice versa). Chords and basses can be placed one above the other to give composite chords. I used to do this, but rarely bother now, because I like to vary things each time around.
Logged
Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5]   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal