Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Down

Author Topic: B/C or C#/D  (Read 16515 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

tedrick

  • Guest
Re: B/C or C#/D
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2011, 07:36:44 PM »

Human tendency is to look for the easiest solution and we all want the favorable results as soon as possible. I have the suspicion that many newcomers come to the box thinking that learning the C#/D box will be easier because one row is D and 50% or more of Irish tunes are in D.

If anyone believes that they are sadly disillusioned. B/C or C#/D - both systems require a lot of work to learn and play proficiently. There are no short cuts. Time + practice = ability
Logged

siamsa

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 40
  • Shand Marino-Gaelic IV-Paolo Soprani 3row
Re: B/C or C#/D
« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2011, 08:40:30 PM »

I was always led to believe that the first two row player of a B/C accordion in these islands was Peter Wyper of Scotland. He is certainly credited with the first recordings of the instrument. Circa 1920s/30s.  Jimmy Shand and William Starr both played B/C two row instruments before finding fame on the three row B/C/C# box.  In Ireland in the late thirties Michael Grogan from Mullingar recorded two reels 'Hand me down the tackle' and 'My Love is in America' on a Hohner B/C box which had begun to appear on the scene at that time. I'm inclined to think that Grogan would have to be credited with being the first exponent of the B/C box in Ireland.
Logged

LDbosca

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 674
Re: B/C or C#/D
« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2011, 10:01:42 PM »

I was always led to believe that the first two row player of a B/C accordion in these islands was Peter Wyper of Scotland. He is certainly credited with the first recordings of the instrument. Circa 1920s/30s.  Jimmy Shand and William Starr both played B/C two row instruments before finding fame on the three row B/C/C# box.  In Ireland in the late thirties Michael Grogan from Mullingar recorded two reels 'Hand me down the tackle' and 'My Love is in America' on a Hohner B/C box which had begun to appear on the scene at that time. I'm inclined to think that Grogan would have to be credited with being the first exponent of the B/C box in Ireland.

There were a few alright but, as far as I know, Paddy O'Brien is the one who created (or seeded) the B/C that became the standard in Irish music. Although Grogan played B/C, his playing is hardly representative of the B/C style we now know. Listening to that particular recording alongside there's very little similarity in style. Same with Sonny Brogan's B/C playing, it's really not up to a whole lot.

Stiamh

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3538
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Re: B/C or C#/D
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2011, 01:47:39 AM »

Ok, here we go Steve. I really think your interpretation of Smith is a bit off.

Really? Read page 451 again. 1st paragraph, 2nd sentence begins

Quote from: Graeme Smith
When the folk movement of the 1970s championed the new melodeon style of Jackie Daly and his followers, they were working from a "folk" ideology which despite its avowed plebeianism found contemporary lower class tastes as exemplified in the modern style and the ceili band difficult to accept. [...] The climax of this process has been the remarkable success of the young accordionist Sharon Shannon... Almost every aspect of her performance and social image is opposite to that of the male post-war modern-style players.

I'm curious to know how you think my earlier summary misrepresents this.

Frankly I think Smithy's need to view the whole subject of his paper through the lens of class causes him to ignore some pretty obvious aspects. You can't get much more working class than Jackie Daly, who was a pipe fitter in the Dutch merchant navy before he turned professional musician. I'd say he developed his style influenced by the fiddler players from his own region of Ireland (which is a large part of what the modern style thing is supposed to be about, being able to do what fiddlers do) and moved to a sweeter, drier sound for aesthetic reasons, and because he liked playing duets with fiddles. So often you hear people saying things like "I never liked the sound of the Irish accordion until I heard Jackie Daly." Now according to Graeme's analysis, all these people must be middle-class folk revivalists, which is obviously not the case.

And the whole distinction between extended melodeon style and modern style is a little too clear-cut for my taste. Why does Graeme spend a large chunk of the paper discussing Joe Fitz's performance of Bonny Kate (which is based on Joe Burke's performance, which is based on Michael Coleman's seminal fiddle recording of the tune) as an example of the modern B/C style, when in fact both Joes play the tune in C - i.e. not really in B/C style at all... what else could you call that but "extended melodeon" style?

Anyway, leaving all that ethnonecrology aside, inspired by this discussion and the fact that I can't do much except sit around and play the box these days (leg still in a plaster cast), I've been playing a few tunes B/C style and really enjoying myself. While I don't intend to make this my main focus, it feels rather liberating, and I'll pursue it, time allowing. So many good players seem equally at ease in both styles. Jackie D won the All-Ireland on B/C, Sharon Shannon seems to play half her tunes in either style, Dermot Byrne likewise. At some point, let the barriers fade away, appreciate both styles for what they can bring to the music, and let the tune, and your mood, decide which key you are going to play it in...

Stiamh

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3538
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Re: B/C or C#/D
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2011, 01:51:46 AM »

Siamsa & Luke: interesting historical summary of the development of Irish-style boxes by Steve Chambers in this thread on concertina.net forums: http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2347

He believes that Grogan played a G/G# on his recordings, btw.

nfldbox

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 492
Re: B/C or C#/D
« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2011, 02:05:57 AM »

I think this is why I was never any good at chess
Logged
BC Cairdin
BC Hohner Double Ray
Bouchard en Ré

Dally

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 47
  • C#D Serenellini 'cloud', C#D Hohner, Max D
Re: B/C or C#/D
« Reply #46 on: March 28, 2011, 08:46:55 AM »

Fascinating discussion.  Thanks for the video, Steve! 

For the last couple of years I've been teaching myself in relative isolation.  There are lots fiddlers and pipers (of various sorts) around, but no box players.  The uilleann pipers ran them out of town, I think.
 :-X 

For what it's worth, my experience starting with BC led me to the C#D but not necessarily because it's easier.  I like the chunky sound of the C#D over the relatively more legato BC.  Also, many of the players I enjoy listening to play C#D and/or one row, especially those from Sliabh Luachra.  But most of the tunes I have in my head are Scottish or Northumbrian pipe tunes.  They just seem to fit and sound better on C#D.   

George's insightful comments convinced me to move to the BCC# for that authentic Shand style, so I started working at the BC system again.  It might be a failure on my part, but I just couldn't get into it and went back to C#D. 

Steve, what key does your half a third row play?
Logged
“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.”
― Oscar Wilde

Stiamh

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3538
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Re: B/C or C#/D
« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2011, 02:41:35 PM »

Steve, what key does your half a third row play?

Explained in this fairly recent thread.

Good that you remind us all that there are reasons for choosing C#/D other than the fact of its being easier, supposedly, initially, etc.

siamsa

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 40
  • Shand Marino-Gaelic IV-Paolo Soprani 3row
Re: B/C or C#/D
« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2011, 03:03:47 PM »

Steve Jones - That was an excellent article by Stephen Chambers, but he did say that Grogan recorded using a B/C
Quote"Paddy O'Brien wasn't the first to play the B/C (and Sonny Brogan made earlier recordings on the instrument)" I have never come across a G/G# instrument so you learn something new every day.
In passing - back in the 1940s/early fifties in Ireland The Garda (Police) had a well known Ceili Band that did regular broadcasts on Radio Eireann.  Terry Lane who played the accordion with them had a custom built five row melodion tuned CFGDA made by the De Lapp Company in Italy.  I believe the instrument is now in the USA. :||:
Logged

Stiamh

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3538
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Re: B/C or C#/D
« Reply #49 on: March 28, 2011, 03:46:35 PM »

@Siamsa: Joe Burke plays a G/G# Paolo on his "Morning Mist" album (notwithstanding the photo on the cover of his B/C Gaillard). You can hear a snippet of it here: http://www.joeburkemusic.com/albums

Effectively a "Bb" box.

And here's a video clip of another one, played by Ned Kelly: http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_287_1_ned_kelly/  (hmm the clip doesn't seem to be working today).


Kautilya

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 977
Re: B/C or C#/D
« Reply #50 on: March 28, 2011, 07:11:59 PM »

@Siamsa: "Morning Mist" album a snippet of it here: http://www.joeburkemusic.com/albums

Effectively a "Bb" box.
Evocative sound!

  Q? The album is called Morning Mist = so the tune he was playing is??

I immediately went looking and found notes for "The Morning Mist" with similarities but major variations so perhaps not the same...?>
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/4507
Logged

Old Leaky

  • Guest
Re: B/C or C#/D
« Reply #51 on: March 28, 2011, 07:32:48 PM »

Er, you mean there's a DIFFERENCE?!?  ??? >:E
Logged

Old Leaky

  • Guest
Re: B/C or C#/D
« Reply #52 on: March 28, 2011, 07:35:19 PM »

Er, you mean there's a DIFFERENCE?!?  ??? >:E

By which, I really mean to say "What difference (does it make)" if what comes out of it is pleasing to the ear?

Oh, BTW I play C#/D. Couldn't get the hang of B/C at all!  :D
Logged

Kautilya

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 977
Re: B/C or C#/D
« Reply #53 on: March 28, 2011, 08:07:09 PM »

Er, you mean there's a DIFFERENCE?!?  ??? >:E

By which, I really mean to say "What difference (does it make)" if what comes out of it is pleasing to the ear?

Oh, BTW I play C#/D. Couldn't get the hang of B/C at all!  :D
Beware of Geeks bearing C#Ds - you can recognise them from afar: they talk to themselves and ask and answer their own questions >:E >:E
Logged

Old Leaky

  • Guest
Re: B/C or C#/D
« Reply #54 on: March 28, 2011, 08:51:23 PM »

Beware of Geeks bearing C#Ds...

Speak of the Devil! Be careful my friend, one way might be to see which one burned for the longest.  Let's say we started with a red 1970s PS C#/D...
Logged

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13727
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: B/C or C#/D
« Reply #55 on: March 28, 2011, 08:55:20 PM »

By which, I really mean to say "What difference (does it make)" if what comes out of it is pleasing to the ear?

Oh, BTW I play C#/D. Couldn't get the hang of B/C at all!  :D

Well you should learn a few tunes in E major,   then you'll find you can play them in D on the BC with the same fingering.  There are several good tunes around that deserve to be played in E, Calliope House for example.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Kautilya

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 977
Re: B/C or C#/D
« Reply #56 on: March 28, 2011, 10:08:56 PM »

Beware of Geeks bearing C#Ds...

Speak of the Devil! Be careful my friend, one way might be to see which one burned for the longest.  Let's say we started with a red 1970s PS C#/D...
So so that's how you want to play it.

 Right: Double Barr/ell/ows at Dawn! Outside that yorkshire Hunting Lodge... :||: :||:

Calliope to sound the paces (in C# of course), and, if I can get my weary bones off the chaise longue, I will dig out Zeus' deadly trumpet and record its thunder here shortly. And that is no hot air threat ... "A calliope [being] a musical instrument that produces sound by [Leakying] a gas..." from Hades (Ἀΐδας written in Dori/c/an scale naturally). :|bl :|bl >:E

I assume Theo is calling on one of his Loyola troops to frighten off those of us on the Dark C#ide.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+calliope+house&docid=775732593138&mid=6179761C9EA0DCCA18396179761C9EA0DCCA1839&FORM=VIRE5

[ that'll keep em guessing eh?!).

« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 10:28:54 PM by Kautilya »
Logged

Dally

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 47
  • C#D Serenellini 'cloud', C#D Hohner, Max D
Re: B/C or C#/D
« Reply #57 on: March 28, 2011, 10:56:01 PM »

@Siamsa: Joe Burke plays a G/G# Paolo on his "Morning Mist" album (notwithstanding the photo on the cover of his B/C Gaillard). You can hear a snippet of it here: http://www.joeburkemusic.com/albums

Effectively a "Bb" box.

And here's a video clip of another one, played by Ned Kelly: http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_287_1_ned_kelly/  (hmm the clip doesn't seem to be working today).

Never heard Ned Kelly before.  What a nice player!  Those boxes have a lovely growl in their sound. 

If I follow what you're saying, Steve, this is "effectively a Bb box" because they're using BC fingering, right?  If C#D players want an "effectively Bb box" they would need one tuned ABb?
Logged
“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.”
― Oscar Wilde

Kautilya

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 977
Re: B/C or C#/D
« Reply #58 on: March 28, 2011, 11:04:37 PM »

Zeus' just Skyped down his trumpet call for the duel - followed by its echo across the Valhalley to Jabz Cave and back.

BTW after his C#D flourish you will hear he deigns to throw in a note off the D row

{His note attached says he played this back on his Bang Thor'Olafursson's system and it may need toning down as Thor's kids are a bit of a rowdy lot.]


« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 11:07:13 PM by Kautilya »
Logged

Stiamh

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3538
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Re: B/C or C#/D
« Reply #59 on: March 29, 2011, 12:40:54 AM »

If I follow what you're saying, Steve, this is "effectively a Bb box" because they're using BC fingering, right?  If C#D players want an "effectively Bb box" they would need one tuned ABb?

Yes. My holy grail. I hope to have one within the next few months, when my tuner gets round to finishing a project started by Paul Groff. All will be revealed then...
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal