Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Quality or Quantity?  (Read 6388 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Skipy

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 171
Quality or Quantity?
« on: July 09, 2008, 11:10:46 PM »

Hi All,

I'm the proud owner of a Hohner Morgane B/C, I'd say I'm slightly above novice level (especially since George advised me to use notes on both rows to save running out of air!) and getting more confident with my playing.

However when I read reviews etc, on this forum, many players give the impression that since they upgraded to a more expensive box, their playing has vastly
Logged
Saltarelle Solstice 12 B/C/C#, Hohner Trichord III B/C/C#. 

I can't imagine life without my melodeons!

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13729
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: Quality or Quantity?
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2008, 07:31:09 AM »

Forget about the price when thinking about new boxes.  I don't mean buy the best and hang the cost.  No I mean take any opportunity that comes along to play other boxes, and don't have any pre-conceived ideas based on price, in fact try to avoid looking at the price ticket.  When you pick up another box let it talk to you, listen to what it says, most times it will say, "OK I'm ok you can play me nicely", sometimes it will say  "I'm a suet pudding, and I'm so heavy" but when you are ready for an upgrade the right box will start siren voices in your head singing to you "buy me, buy me, buy me, buy me, buy me, buy me, buy me, buy me, "   then you know its time to upgrade.

Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Skipy

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 171
Re: Quality or Quantity?
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2008, 08:42:20 AM »

Thanks Theo, Good Sound Advice, I bought the Morgane on just that principal, of all the boxes I played in the shop, it was that one that called to me........ of course, it was the dearest one on display (in my price range)!

I think I'll continue to ask other players if I can just 'have a quick play' on their instruments or when passing a store, try a few different boxes.

However, and I know the simple answer to my question is, 'you wont know till you pick one up and try it' but in principal, Is a more expensive box 'easier' to play faster than say, my box?
ie. "Go for the Dinn II if you're comfortable with it, you wont regret paying the extra money, it's got hand made reeds, they're so much quicker and responsive".

Logged
Saltarelle Solstice 12 B/C/C#, Hohner Trichord III B/C/C#. 

I can't imagine life without my melodeons!

Steve_freereeder

  • Content Manager
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7511
  • MAD is inevitable. Keep Calm and Carry On
    • Lizzie Dripping
Re: Quality or Quantity?
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2008, 09:20:18 AM »

Thanks Theo, Good Sound Advice, I bought the Morgane on just that principal, of all the boxes I played in the shop, it was that one that called to me........ of course, it was the dearest one on display (in my price range)!

I think I'll continue to ask other players if I can just 'have a quick play' on their instruments or when passing a store, try a few different boxes.

However, and I know the simple answer to my question is, 'you wont know till you pick one up and try it' but in principal, Is a more expensive box 'easier' to play faster than say, my box?
ie. "Go for the Dinn II if you're comfortable with it, you wont regret paying the extra money, it's got hand made reeds, they're so much quicker and responsive".
I also think Theo's advice is spot on. But just to elaborate from my own experience....
The Morgane seems to me to be a nice box - I've tried out a couple (admittedly in D/G rather than B/C; I'm aware that the different style of playing the latter might lead to different impressions of how 'fast' an instrument is). The reeds seemed pretty responsive to me, so I think you could go a long way with it.

As to whether more expensive boxes are 'easier to play faster', I would give a rather qualified 'yes, generally' reply. TAM (Hand-made/finished) reeds as found on the up-market instruments will usually be more responsive than the non-TAM reeds found on the cheaper boxes. Certainly Castagnaris are rightfully renowned for their responsiveness (and also their consistently good quality). The Dinn II is indeed a good instrument. But...... other makes, maybe without TAM reeds, can also be fast. Some people swear by Saltarelles for example (others swear at them but let's not go down that road ;) ). It's not just the reeds which make a box 'fast' or not. It's also the weight of the ends, the flexibility of the bellows, the efficiency of the action, etc...

When you find yourself getting continually frustrated by the limitations/sound/responsiveness of your existing instrument, then is the time to consider a change. In the end, as others have said, you need to try out as many instruments as possible. Have you considered going to Melodeons at Witney? There's a good opportunity to try a lot of instruments, although it has to be said that normally it is aimed at D/G players rather than B/C players. However it's not out of the question to use a B/C box at M@W - just different...

 
Logged
Steve
Sheffield, UK.
www.lizziedripping.org.uk

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13729
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: Quality or Quantity?
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2008, 10:44:18 AM »

However, and I know the simple answer to my question is, 'you wont know till you pick one up and try it' but in principal, Is a more expensive box 'easier' to play faster than say, my box?
ie. "Go for the Dinn II if you're comfortable with it, you wont regret paying the extra money, it's got hand made reeds, they're so much quicker and responsive".

It should be true, but I've not found it so in every case.  For example, several years ago I ordered an expensive Italian box and waited 6 months for it to arrive.  The anticipation had built up to such an extent that when it arrived I convinced myself that I liked it.  After a couple of years I finally admitted to myself that it was not right for me and got something else instead.  So you have to get the instrument that is right for you. Chances are you will find the box you like better will be more expensive, but don't expect to like every expensive box you try.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

joe

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 185
Re: Quality or Quantity?
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2008, 12:21:50 PM »

A friend of mine, a fairly well reknowned box player swears by his Hohner Erica. He told me that over the years he had borrowed many expensive melodeons on sale or return, but for him, none compared to the Erica.

Just goes to show that cost isnt everything!
Logged

brianread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1008
    • Slow and Steady Session in West Lancashire/Greater Manchester; Dance club in Rainford
Re: Quality or Quantity?
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2008, 01:11:49 PM »

My castag  has made a tremendous difference to my playing (i played a pokerwork before).  However these things are not simple, since getting the castag I play a lot more, therefore more practice...I have had the occasional player try my box and be amazed how responsive it is. 

At the last but one Melodeons at Whitney I played as many of the demo boxes that I could, and found them all "soggy" except a 2.5 row Saltarelle whose cost was comparable with my castag.

However I recently picked up the pokerwork, and low and behold it lead me to all sorts of different variations on tunes I know and love to play on the castag.  Also the basses were fantastic! There are however some tunes I just can't play on the pokerwork, as the box just does not allow me to move fast enough.

Not sure this helps, just my two pennyworth.
Logged
Brian Read
D/G Oakwood (new model), D/G, C /F, Bb/Eb and E/A Liliputs,
A STREB!!,
2.5 D/G Self made Emmanuel Pariselle, D/G Pokerwork,
and Wolverton Advanced G/D Anglo Concertina and C/G  1937 Wheatstone.
all played "lefty" with mostly an extra air button, except the Concertinas which I play the conventional way round.

Québécois

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1206
  • Accordez-vous donc, c'est si beau, l'accordéon!
Re: Quality or Quantity?
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2008, 03:01:36 PM »

However I recently picked up the pokerwork, and low and behold it lead me to all sorts of different variations on tunes I know and love to play on the castag.  Also the basses were fantastic! There are however some tunes I just can't play on the pokerwork, as the box just does not allow me to move fast enough.
It seems that we tend to play different tunes on different instruments! So, some tunes may sound "better" on a lesser box, when you own several instruments of varying quality. Bottom line for me is: make the best of the box(es) you have, no matter their price!
Logged
Hohner Morgane D/G, pre-Erica Hohner in C/F and G/C,
Hohner Erica A/D, Roland FR-18

Dazbo

  • Mods and volunteers
  • Respected Sage
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 364
  • Danger MAD Here!
    • My YouTube Channel for melodeons, morris and folk in general
Re: Quality or Quantity?
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2008, 03:13:26 PM »


I'd have to agree with Steve and Theo.  My pennyworth is that the time to "upgrade" is when the box you've got is holding you back or it just doesn't do what you want (reeds don't respond fast enough, need some accidentals or extra voicings).  Price is no real guide to box playability, even the costalotties (as some call them) vary in some way.  I've often had a go on festival stalls and might try three or four different Tommies and one will speak to me "buy me" louder than the others. 

Try before you buy must be a box players maxim (although when MAD grabs you sanity goes out the window! ;D)
Logged
Ciao Bellow

Darren

Skipy

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 171
Re: Quality or Quantity?
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2008, 01:26:23 PM »

Thanks to all for the usual excellent advice and comments, they were read and absorbed with many 'Hhhmms' and 'Oohhhs'.

As I'm more than happy with my Morgane for now, I'll just keep tapping the shoulders of either other musicians or shop assistants until I hear the 'buy me, buy me, buy me' voice! ;)

Skipy
Logged
Saltarelle Solstice 12 B/C/C#, Hohner Trichord III B/C/C#. 

I can't imagine life without my melodeons!

flipper

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 46
Re: Quality or Quantity?
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2008, 01:28:35 AM »

Hi my comment on this is that so many people think that a new box is always the best option. This is often the case but any new box needs to be played in for a while before it achieves its best. The biggest problem is new bellows which can take ages to get to react in the way you want them because they are stiff. So when you look to upgrade try some of the second hand boxes which someone else has already played in for you and you may find that this saves you money and helps to improve your playing as well.

sue
Logged
Sue,
Dino Baffetti D/G, Weltmiester B/C

brianread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1008
    • Slow and Steady Session in West Lancashire/Greater Manchester; Dance club in Rainford
Re: Quality or Quantity?
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2008, 06:33:10 AM »

So when you look to upgrade try some of the second hand boxes which someone else has already played in for you and you may find that this saves you money and helps to improve your playing as well.

agreed, my castag was about 7 years old when I bought it (at about 1/2 the new price), a win-win situation.  Buying second hand is good for the planet as well.
Logged
Brian Read
D/G Oakwood (new model), D/G, C /F, Bb/Eb and E/A Liliputs,
A STREB!!,
2.5 D/G Self made Emmanuel Pariselle, D/G Pokerwork,
and Wolverton Advanced G/D Anglo Concertina and C/G  1937 Wheatstone.
all played "lefty" with mostly an extra air button, except the Concertinas which I play the conventional way round.

Nick Hudis

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 334
  • Loffet Pro 18, Castagnari Casta
    • Themassageman
Re: Quality or Quantity?
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2008, 03:46:55 PM »

admire the Castagnari sound particularly in the hands of Andy Cutting, I don't really like it.

The point is not that vintage Hohners are the best intruments (I happen to think so, but that just me) but I was lucky enough to find the sound and style of accordion that speaks to me and cost has nothing to do with it.  I think it is also important to find out what tuning suits you.  fourth tuned, chromatic,  Club etc will not only lead you to particular types of music, they suit particular players.  For me discovering Club tuning was a  real turning point after playing a D/G box.  Its not you you'll necessarily sound better on the right box (A great player would sound great on the proverbial recycled chinese toilet paper box) but you'll feel more comfortable and get more pleasure from your playing.

The lesson I learned is try before you buy and then follow your heart.
Logged
Nick

rees

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4734
  • Windjammer
    • Wesson Accordions
Re: Quality or Quantity?
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2008, 07:46:03 PM »

I've been importing, selling and playing Castagnari for the last 25 years. It was a revelation when I first discovered them being played by both Marc Perrone and La Ciapa Russa. It altered my playing style considerably, having until then played Pokerworks and Ericas. Pretty soon the Italian instruments caught on and English melodeon playing was changed forever.

After all this time I still believe Castagnari to be unbeatable but, and it is a huge BUT - I would never ever be parted from my trusty Hohners and I still play them regularly in bands and at sessions. Italian makers make fabulous melodeons but they have never made anything that sounds and plays like an old Hohner.  8)
Logged
Rees Wesson (accordion builder and mechanic)
Gungrog, Welshpool, Wales, UK
www.melodeons.com

sCANdanADIAN

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 181
Re: Quality or Quantity?
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2008, 12:14:59 AM »

I'm with Suffolkboy on this issue.The quality of a Castagnari is high but the sound hasn't really thrilled me.The Coronas and Corsos may have a few clicking and clacking problems but the light weight,low price and rich sound more than make up for it.The Clubs on the other hand are very well made and only suffer from a limited bass system.
Logged

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13729
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: Quality or Quantity?
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2008, 08:51:54 AM »

Although I'm a fan of old Hohner Club boxes I have to add a note of caution here. 

Yes Hohner Clubs boxes have a lot of potential and are beginning  to be appreciated again,  yes they can sound good if their kind of sound is what you like. And they are the cheapest way of getting a two and a half row system. But the quality of materials and workmanship is not the same as the best modern Italian instruments. They can suffer from similar problems of noisy keyboards and rattling bass action that are a feature of Erica/Pokerwork, unless they are rebuilt incorporating  techniques borrowed from Italian makers.  Most of the 3 voice celluloid models are quite big and heavy, and under the celluloid the casework is plywood. 

So lets keep things in perspective.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Nick Hudis

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 334
  • Loffet Pro 18, Castagnari Casta
    • Themassageman
Re: Quality or Quantity?
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2008, 11:47:47 AM »

Funny thing is,  I drove a clapped out old VW camper van for years, and a day hasn't gone by when I don't regret when it got too old and rusty to keep. I bought it for a song, spent thousands doing it up.  It drank petrol like it came out of the tap, was a heavy brute to drive, totally lacked any form of heating (we used to drive along scraping ice off the inside of the windscreen with a fish slice), leaked in the rain...... Yet I loved it and took it literally the length and breadth of the country having every kind of adventure.

I guess I'm just the kind of guy who likes rattly old German stuff.  Doesn't stop me thinking wow! when I'm  overtaken by a Ferrari!  That about sums up where I stand on Hohners and Castagnaris.

If I played professionally or semi pro, as I did on other instruments 25 years ago, I'd have a very different perspective, but I'm in the box game purely for fun and the old Hohners provide that in good measure.
Logged
Nick

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13729
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: Quality or Quantity?
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2008, 12:40:41 PM »

If I played professionally or semi pro, as I did on other instruments 25 years ago, I'd have a very different perspective, but I'm in the box game purely for fun and the old Hohners provide that in good measure.

You would be surprised at how many pro musicians have an old Hohner Club either as main instrument like Pete Coe, or as a second or third box.  I've see Brian Peters, John Spiers, Saul Rose, Katie Howson and Tim Laycock playing them in public performance.  There are probably more.  This could be a new game - spot the Hohner Club :D
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

rees

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4734
  • Windjammer
    • Wesson Accordions
Re: Quality or Quantity?
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2008, 01:21:18 PM »

Also John Jones (Oyster Band) and Simon Care.
Logged
Rees Wesson (accordion builder and mechanic)
Gungrog, Welshpool, Wales, UK
www.melodeons.com

sCANdanADIAN

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 181
Re: Quality or Quantity?
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2008, 03:43:41 AM »

You're quite right Theo,I guess I was getting carried away and no my Club is not for sale ;D.
I think they compare well to the old Paolo Sopranis though.I played a Paolo B/C for a bit and my ClubIII M feels similar although it's been a while since I've been able to compare them.

Button clacking on my III M is pretty minimal,the bass side has felt bushings around the holes and the treble side is nicely aligned.

Chris
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal