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[ladydetemps]

Thought I'd make a new thread for this. (wasn't sure if this should be in makes and models?)

So what in your mind makes a fancy box?
-Price
-Provenance
-Looks
-Number of buttons/stops
-Size
-Brand name
-Sound

For me a 'fancy' box is one which you can do more with/play more tunes etc. that the 'standard' type box. Price doesn't come into it. If Hohner made a box as small as the tommy for same price as a pokerwork...I'd buy it.

[summerstars]

for me it just has to be the sound it makes -

[Alan Morley]

What Makes a 'Fancy' Box ?

For me it's a combination of many things.

Tone/ Reed Quality - Speed and feel / responsiveness - quality bellows - number of rows - Build Quality - finally, can I play things on it that I can't play already on my Excelsior ISIS..

I wouldn't just buy a 'name'. When I had a Castagnari Tomy and a Lilly around 15 years ago they were lovely - I tried some recently which felt asthmatic compared with the ones I owned, but that might just have been the examples I tried.

Also - if your ability, experience and musicality justifies a 'fancy' box - then buy one, but there is no point shelling out loads of money if you can't get the best out of the box. Just because someone new to melodeons might buy a box same as Andy Cutting plays, they won't suddenly play like him. The 'fancy' boxes can actually run away with an inexperienced player, because they are so damn fast and responsive.
On the other hand a lesser quality box could hold a player back by not performing well and being sluggish.

[ladydetemps]

Also - if your ability, experience and musicality justifies a 'fancy' box - then buy one, but there is no point shelling out loads of money if you can't get the best out of the box. Just because someone new to melodeons might buy a box same as Andy Cutting plays, they won't suddenly play like him. The 'fancy' boxes can actually run away with an inexperienced player, because they are so damn fast and responsive.
On the other hand a lesser quality box could hold a player back by not performing well and being sluggish.

I only got a relatively expensive box first off (the sara) because I struggled with having a 'cheap' concertina and thought I'd start my melodeon playing with a better 'quality' instrument that I wouldn't need to upgrade later on. I was thinking quality rather than fancy. Plus I'd tried Ollie's pokerwork and it put me off the hohners (sorry Ollie). (But sold the sara to buy the tommy as I got back/shoulderache from the sara as it was too heavy for me) But I've since realised its not the price of the box that counts its if it suits *you*. And the tommy suits me coz its small enough for my stumpy fingers and I like the hohner one row because its....uncomplicated.

[savantuk]

for me it just has to be the sound it makes -

It's very difficult to argue with this.  No matter how fancy the box, or how expensive, if it doesn't sound good, it's a complete waste of money.

A case in point - I have a Swiss made 3 voice C/F Hohner Corso, which wasn't and never will be anything but a pick up and play inexpensive box.  The sound however is quite beautiful, a lovely thick almost musette tuning that I think couldn't be bettered by any other box, at any price - imagine a Pokerwork on steroids. It only cost £300, and worth every penny.

[Alan Morley]

for me it just has to be the sound it makes -

It's very difficult to argue with this.  No matter how fancy the box, or how expensive, if it doesn't sound good, it's a complete waste of money.

The 'Sound' of any instrument is a strange thing to explain though. I think most musician have their own perfect 'sound' in their head and it's great when you can find an instrument to match with your own ideas. What sounds fantastic to me might sound awful to someone else though.....

Any instrument is such a personal item and a joy when you find your own ideal one. I was ages trying out boxes when I got my last one - I went through the same agony with my guitars/ amplifiers / foot pedals. The sound often comes down to how you play the instruments anyway. Different musicians will coax different sounds out of the same box / guitar / fiddle - it's all in the way it's played.

[Anahata]

The sound often comes down to how you play the instruments anyway.

Yep.
There's two essential and different qualities that make a box good - the sound, and the feel.
By 'feel', I mean how easy it is to play.

There was an interesting experiment done once, where a good violinist was recorded playing the same music on a very valuable instrument and on a cheap one. The listening panel didn't find a huge difference between the sound of the two instruments, but the player said he had to work much harder to get a good sound out of the cheaper instrument.

[Andy Simpson]

Rhinestones. Lots of rhinestones....and glittery celluloid.

[Bob Ellis]

I think there is a distinction to be made between a 'good' box and a 'fancy' box.

A 'good' box can be a standard Hohner, Castagnari, Saltarelle or whatever, but it will be one with a sweet tone, a light and responsive action, sound construction and a lack of defects.

A 'fancy' box. in my opinion, is one with an unusual layout that facilitates playing in unusual keys (e.g Emmanuel Pariselle's 2.6 row layout with 14 bass buttons) or, for those who like that sort of thing, one with lots of bling.

[Sandy Flett]

I think there is a distinction to be made between a 'good' box and a 'fancy' box.

A 'good' box can be a standard Hohner, Castagnari, Saltarelle or whatever, but it will be one with a sweet tone, a light and responsive action, sound construction and a lack of defects.
 

Yes, I was wanting to say something like that.

A 'fancy' box. in my opinion, is one with an unusual layout that facilitates playing in unusual keys (e.g Emmanuel Pariselle's 2.6 row layout with 14 bass buttons) or, for those who like that sort of thing, one with lots of bling.[/color]

I would almost be inclined to save the word "fancy" for the decoration, bling, etc, and call the likes of the 2.6 row, and indeed your own customized Benny, Bob, something like "advanced", which in almost all cases would also be "good".

[Gary P Chapin]

The sound often comes down to how you play the instruments anyway.

Yep.
There's two essential and different qualities that make a box good - the sound, and the feel.
By 'feel', I mean how easy it is to play.

Agree completely.  I've played a Tommy and I've played a pokerwork.  A world of difference.  Even between my Pastourelle and the Nik ... the Castagnari has so much more ease of play.

[Thrupenny Bit]

My Tommy might, by some people, be classed as 'fancy'.
I bought it for the same reasons as LdT did - we can both physically play it because it's small, as opposed to failing to play another larger box and be held back by it's ( our? ) physical limitations.
It was also the most responsive I tried. Taking issue with Almo, it might be responsive in melodeon terms, but coming from a good quality English Concertina, I find it's still not quite there. Some I tried before buying and almost had to wait for the thing to make a squeak. That would drive me absolutely barking.
Instead of 'running away' with me, my wife commented only last weekend, that sometimes I push a button but don't sound the note before moving on.
OK that is partly down to me as a beginner trying to play too quickly, but also partly due to my other instrument allowing me to sound reeds more quickly and I'm used to that. The smaller bellows and reeds  of an English concertina being quicker to move/respond. I'm used to a responsive instrument, and anything less responsive I'm not sure I could cope with.

I think I would agree with someone up there ^^ in that to me a fancy box would be a 2 1/2 row or 3 row something....... maybe of a non standard tuning, not sure about rhine stones or stuff like that though. That's definitely 'not me'
Q

[Theo]

A fancy box is just a box at a fancy price!  What George would call a Costalotti.

[Owen Woods]

Fancy box is either: more than two voices OR more than two rows (excluding ADG) OR more than 8 basses (excluding one-rows and so on) OR a box made by an expensive maker (i.e. costalotti, Loffet, Galliard, Briggs, etc.) OR a rare, unique or unusual box.

In my mind "fancy" does not equal "good"

[Alan Morley]

Taking issue with Almo, it might be responsive in melodeon terms, but coming from a good quality English Concertina, I find it's still not quite there. Some I tried before buying and almost had to wait for the thing to make a squeak. That would drive me absolutely barking.
Instead of 'running away' with me, my wife commented only last weekend, that sometimes I push a button but don't sound the note before moving on.

I did say that the newer Tomy's and Lilly's seem slower than the one I had some years ago, but I have no idea how fast a concertina is - never played one...

My Tomy and Lilly almost played before you had touched the buttons, especially the Lilly with the small bellows - so easy to show all your mistakes before you have realised what you have actually played....

Almo

[ladydetemps]

The only issue I have with the tommy is running out of air.

[Alan Morley]

The only issue I have with the tommy is running out of air.

That's down to playing technique...

[Thrupenny Bit]

'That's down to playing technique...' and learned experience.
My first session a couple of months back, I was mortified when I realised no sound was coming out - I'd closed the bellows 
I was concentrating so much on everything else on my first 'out' I made simple errors I'd not even made before.
I now find I'm becoming more aware of bellows control, and when's a good time to 'stroke air in/out' as someone of this parish once described it, and if I regularly seem to get in a tight corner in a part of a tune, try to control it so's not to caught out again.
As ever, this is advice regularly said on here, but it's only just sinking in.
Q

[ladydetemps]

Its fine when I play along the rows..its just when I crossrow and drone chords I have issues. Fortunately I don't have to play that way often.

[Thrupenny Bit]

I find it's slightly more air hungry when I pull the treble stop and bring in the 3rd reed, but as it's working more reeds I suppose that's reasonable.
I pick and choose just a couple of tunes for that, so it's not a regular thing.
....and as you say, using basses also needs more air.
Q