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Author Topic: Recording Your Sound  (Read 11434 times)

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Andrew Wigglesworth

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Re: Recording Your Sound
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2011, 11:45:22 AM »

I've never tried this particular microphone with GNU/Linux but I have used (and seen used) various plug and play sound devices including microphones, mixing desks and headsets. They've all been picked up by the kernel (Linux) and offered up as sound devices to the operating system.

Plug and play happens at a low level in the operating system and the kernel in GNU/Linux handles the vast majority of USB devices natively these days.

So, I'd be *very* surprised if it didn't work, but it's probably best to check the returns policy of the company you're buying it from just in case.

Anahata

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Re: Recording Your Sound
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2011, 01:30:07 PM »

Also at Thomann who ship anywhere (I've bought lots of their stuff)
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IanD

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Re: Recording Your Sound
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2011, 09:30:07 PM »

I've just tried out the MXL USB.007 and it works a treat -- very clean and clear, low noise floor, plug and play straight into a laptop running Windows XP.

And it's stereo into 1 USB port, and comes with a mini-tripod and 3m cable -- couldn't be easier.

Ian
That sounds very VERY interesting! Any chance of knowing where you bought your microphone? Unfortunately it seems hard to find any MXL dealer in Europe...

Staggeringly convenient and fine if you only need 1 mic. Probably a bit of a pain if you need more than one as each mic will look like a separate USB sound interface, or if you want the mic a little further away from the PC than the cable will stretch. Once you start stringing USB hubs across the room it doesn't look so handy any more.

But I haven't tried one...

(Edit: more than one )
Yes, I know what you mean...  :P But I got friends with tons of advanced studiostuff computer/soundcard/microphone/and some other stuff :o ??? I don't really know much about these things, maybe its time for me to take a course or something, because when it comes to amplifying and recording I tend to leave the decisionmaking to others...

I sent the link earlier, search ebay UK for MXL USB.007 -- company is Et Cetera Distribution, they've got 4 left.

Peter Butler
Suite 2, Havana House
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peter@etcetera.co.uk
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Re: Recording Your Sound
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2011, 09:24:03 AM »

Great! Thanks for the tips and link  (:) donno how I missed out Thomann, but also seems to be another than Ian's MXL, but worth while investigating!
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Recording Your Sound
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2011, 10:48:58 AM »

I've been following this thread with interest, although I'm no expert.  It seems to me that it mainly concerns recording using USB mikes, and there has been discussion about convenience and noise and so on.  However what I don't really understand is why it wouldn't be a better option to buy a complete recording device, if you're wanting to record sound fairly cheaply - say a Zoom H1 at around £80?  That way you'd get negligible background noise problems, high quality stereo, immediate convenience without cables being needed until you download, massive extra storage (indeed it could double as a big memory stick), and most importantly, portability.  The device is also going to be tailor made for the job, rather than having to use mouse and keyboard.

I haven't compared specs or anything, so there may be an obvious technical reason why this is not a good option?  But these recorders are pretty good, I believe.

I find that if I just plug headphones into my PC or laptop, I get a lot of background noise immediately, never mind all the problems of fans, etc.  Is this unusual?

Isn't the point that a Behringer mike is somewhat specialist, so is not going to be as cheap for the same quality as these digital recorders, which have a much larger market?

I know Anahata has mentioned the stage use of USB mikes, and indeed I accept you wouldn't use a Zoom for that.  However for stage use there's a lot of other issues in consideration, aren't there, and you'd need to spend a lot more to cover them anyway, I would have thought. 
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Re: Recording Your Sound
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2011, 11:29:24 AM »

Hi Chris

The Zoom H1 looks very interesting - I see it's got 24 bit recording too - which is higher than the condenser mic Im using - might have to have a look at one.
Thanks for bringing that up

Alan
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Re: Recording Your Sound
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2011, 12:22:10 PM »

what I don't really understand is why it wouldn't be a better option to buy a complete recording device, if you're wanting to record sound fairly cheaply - say a Zoom H1 at around £80?

For simple stereo, I agree. I have an Edirol R-09 which I bought before the cheaper Zoom and other devices came out, and I have used it for sound recording with videos at home, as well as for sessions and other obvious live music recording uses. It's a marvellous tool for all the reasons you say.

About the only disadvantage compared with  two separate mics is that you can't make any kind of two channel recording which requires the mics to be other than 5 cm apart, such as a separate instrument on each channel, or voice and instrument, unless you invest in extra stuff that destroys the "one box" simplicity.

Quote
I know Anahata has mentioned the stage use of USB mikes
On a point of pedantry, not USB mikes: I mentioned the Behringer C-2 which are just standard small diaphragm condensers with XLR connectors. But your point is well made: they need the extra complication of preamplifiers and phantom power. One reason why I use them and other, better condensers in my home studio is because I already have 8 mic channels that provide me with all that. (yes, they do all get used occasionally!)

The Zoom H1 looks very interesting - I see it's got 24 bit recording too - which is higher than the condenser mic Im using - might have to have a look at one.

So does my Edirol. Both are likely to be about 18 bits of real signal and 6 bits of noise at best.
But a 24 bit recorder does have the advantage that you can set the recording level conservatively low to avoid overloading, and be able to boost the level in processing in your computer when you have more control over levels, with maybe less background noise when you do so.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Recording Your Sound
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2011, 12:35:10 PM »

Quote
But a 24 bit recorder does have the advantage that you can set the recording level conservatively low to avoid overloading, and be able to boost the level in processing in your computer when you have more control over levels, with maybe less background noise when you do so.

And also this obviates the need to use automatic recording levels, which are almost bound to give you problems in my experience - with a little practice you can judge the right recording level, and then boost it during the processing, as you say Anahata, without bothering too much about background noise becoming a problem.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Recording Your Sound
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2011, 12:49:56 PM »

Quote
On a point of pedantry, not USB mikes: I mentioned the Behringer C-2 which are just standard small diaphragm condensers with XLR connectors.

Ah sorry, I wasn't familiar with them.  But on the question of recording from mikes further apart to allow several instruments, that's undoubtedly true and would certianly be an advantage of individual mikes, but I think Almo is talking about recording individual instruments onto separate tracks.  However in the particular case of recording boxes, I've found that you can use the close (X-Y is it called?) stereo mikes to adjust the relative volume of the treble and bass sides pretty effectively, and I've noticed that this is a pretty useful mixing tool.  I also have in mind past forum discussions about the interference technicalities of recording with two mikes close together, where the design of the Zoom recorders has taken away this potentially difficult issue.
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Anahata

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Re: Recording Your Sound
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2011, 01:54:54 PM »

X-Y is it called?
XY is when you have coincident(as near as possible) mics pointing at 90 degrees to each other.
Compare with:
AB - widely spaced omnidirectional mics
ORTF - mics spaced 17cm apart pointing away form each other at 110 degrees (simulates response of human ears)
Blumlein - near-coincident figure-of-8 mics at 90 degrees

Good summary of several mic placement issues here: http://www.pfarrell.com/prc/michints.html

Quote
I also have in mind past forum discussions about the interference technicalities of recording with two mikes close together, where the design of the Zoom recorders has taken away this potentially difficult issue.
No better than others, I suspect
XY is the best arrangement for mono compatibility
ORTF, on the other hand, can give stunningly good stereo sound.

(Edit:typo)
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 03:34:13 PM by Anahata »
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Alan Morley

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Re: Recording Your Sound
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2011, 02:47:04 PM »

Anahata - Useful stuff - thanks for posting

Alan
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Howard Mitchell

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Re: Recording Your Sound
« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2011, 03:20:58 PM »

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Chris Brimley

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Re: Recording Your Sound
« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2011, 05:11:08 PM »

I'm grateful to Howard and Anahata for the technical references, which certainly flesh out the issues.  But having had a look at them, am I wrong to think that the X-Y system has a lot of advantages for recording boxes?  We've been over all this a year or two ago, I know, and the conclusion I came to was that if you want to mix the bass end and treble end, in a way that gives control over the balance of LHS and RHS, it's the practical way to do it without comb interference issues arising.  This principle works on stage as well as in recording, doesn't it?

This isn't really a stereo issue, more to do with combining the separate sound sources of LHS and RHS in a way that sounds natural,and allows some control over their relative volumes.    This then produces two signals which when mixed become mono (this is where X-Y scores, as I understand it), though this can be panned in the final mix at will. 

For recording a box, a mono mike at a distance might well work just as well if you don't want to adjust the balance (or even if you do, with judicious placement).  I wasn't really straying into the question of the stereo recording of several instruments at once, or the wider issues regarding compact recorders versus other systems in live recording of several instruments.
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Re: Recording Your Sound
« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2011, 05:35:29 PM »

Whoah... this is way over my head! I only use a simple Zoom H1 on a mic stand and get a nice stereo effect for the treble and bass sides thanks to its X/Y mic setting! Total investment of CAD 140 with the accessories kit (windscreen, tripod, A/C adaptor, mic stand adaptor). Upload the WAV (or MP3) file to the computer, do some editing or equalizing and voilà!
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Anahata

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Re: Recording Your Sound
« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2011, 06:06:46 PM »

am I wrong to think that the X-Y system has a lot of advantages for recording boxes?  We've been over all this a year or two ago, I know, and the conclusion I came to was that if you want to mix the bass end and treble end, in a way that gives control over the balance of LHS and RHS, it's the practical way to do it without comb interference issues arising.

It is possible to mic the LH and RH sides separately and close enough that each picks up very little of the other's sound, then mix for best balance No comb filter effects that way because there isn't enough correlation between the two sides. That doesn't necessarily make a good recording, in the sense of a realistic stereo image, even after you've panned L and R so they are only a few degrees L and R of centre.

The alternative approach is a stereo pair (XY or whatever) some distance away in front of the box. You'll record what a human listener would hear, and if the instrument and player are adequate the natural balance of bass and treble sides of the box should be correct and anyway can't be adjusted much. When you do that you are recording the whole room's sound field, which is why you can make a very realistic recording, but also means you need a room that doesn't sound too bad. You can record an unaccompanied singer or other instrument with basically only a single sound source this way, and because of the way you pick up the room sound which is never exactly symmetrical, you still get a meaningful stereo image.

For recording a box, a mono mike at a distance might well work just as well if you don't want to adjust the balance (or even if you do, with judicious placement).
For a multi track recording with other instruments, this can be done and indeed has been done on me in a recording studio. Single mic about two feet away right in front of the bellows. I think it was a Neumann M147 - I'm not going to argue with that  ;)
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IanD

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Re: Recording Your Sound
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2011, 10:45:39 AM »

I've been following this thread with interest, although I'm no expert.  It seems to me that it mainly concerns recording using USB mikes, and there has been discussion about convenience and noise and so on.  However what I don't really understand is why it wouldn't be a better option to buy a complete recording device, if you're wanting to record sound fairly cheaply - say a Zoom H1 at around £80?  That way you'd get negligible background noise problems, high quality stereo, immediate convenience without cables being needed until you download, massive extra storage (indeed it could double as a big memory stick), and most importantly, portability.  The device is also going to be tailor made for the job, rather than having to use mouse and keyboard.

I haven't compared specs or anything, so there may be an obvious technical reason why this is not a good option?  But these recorders are pretty good, I believe.

I find that if I just plug headphones into my PC or laptop, I get a lot of background noise immediately, never mind all the problems of fans, etc.  Is this unusual?

Isn't the point that a Behringer mike is somewhat specialist, so is not going to be as cheap for the same quality as these digital recorders, which have a much larger market?

I know Anahata has mentioned the stage use of USB mikes, and indeed I accept you wouldn't use a Zoom for that.  However for stage use there's a lot of other issues in consideration, aren't there, and you'd need to spend a lot more to cover them anyway, I would have thought. 

It all depends what you want to do. For making recordings "in the field" (like at a folk club) something like the Edirol or Zoom is a lot more convenient. If you want to record things which are going to end up on a PC anyway for editing or processing or posting online, it's easier to have them on the PC (or laptop) straight away, and a USB mic is the easiest way of doing this -- most PC/laptop mic inputs are too noisy for decent recordings with an analogue mic unless you use an external low-noise preamp or mixer.

For example, last weekend we were making recordings at band practice -- in this case using our PA mixer into the PC line input, because the MXL mic hadn't arrived. Record onto a laptop (using GoldWave), laptop is connected to wireless network, so is media player which connects to hi-fi. Sound files on laptop can immediately be edited if required (volume, EQ, reverb, compression...) and played back through hi-fi to hear what it really sounds like. Or with studio monitor headphones plugged into the laptop you also get excellent sound quality for one listener.

Or if I do the same at my main PC which has excellent speakers attached, same thing but without the media streamer.

Also from what I've read the mics on the all-in-one recorders are decent but not up to the quality of separate condenser mics like the MXL.

Horses for courses... :-)
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Re: Recording Your Sound
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2011, 10:57:35 AM »

Quote
But a 24 bit recorder does have the advantage that you can set the recording level conservatively low to avoid overloading, and be able to boost the level in processing in your computer when you have more control over levels, with maybe less background noise when you do so.

And also this obviates the need to use automatic recording levels, which are almost bound to give you problems in my experience - with a little practice you can judge the right recording level, and then boost it during the processing, as you say Anahata, without bothering too much about background noise becoming a problem.

Very few mics (either condenser, or dynamic via a preamp) have enough dynamic range to trouble a 16 bit ADC, to be honest a 24 bit ADC is really more about specmanship than sound quality -- trust me, I've designed many ADCs for audio and higher performance applications, and know what really matters as opposed to what goes in a specification.

With the MXL "normal" sound levels (voice etc) come out around 20dB below full scale, instruments like box peak about 10dB below full scale. I'd guess that this means the noise floor of the 16 bit ADC (ignoring the mic preamp) would be around 30dB SPL with maximum SPL before overload around 125dB. If you can find any recording venue other than a soundproofed studio with background noise SPL as low as 30dB I'd be *very* surprised...

When I've got some time I'll compare the MXL mic with a conventional mic fed into a nice quiet Allen & Heath mixer, and see what the difference in background noise level is.

Ian
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Recording Your Sound
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2011, 02:30:31 PM »

Quote
it's easier to have them on the PC (or laptop) straight away

Yes, I can see that's a real advantage, though to be honest I find it takes me only perhaps 30 seconds to download a track from my H2 to GoldWave.

Quote
and played back through hi-fi to hear what it really sounds like. Or with studio monitor headphones plugged into the laptop you also get excellent sound quality for one listener.


My PC and laptop are both very noisy in audio playback it seems, far more so than the Zoom in playback mode - is this typical in your experience Ian?
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Alan Morley

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Re: Recording Your Sound
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2011, 02:45:29 PM »

Grrrrr Chris,

You shouldn't have mentioned the Zoom H1 - you made me look it up and have a read.

All the reports are good and saying the sound quality is great for £80, and some of the examples on YouTube are really good.

SO YOU MADE ME BUY ONE

Ordered it from Amazon at about 5pm yesterday - it arrived with me for about 11am this morning Saturday..

I'll possibly get more use out of it to record my band on practice nights and gigs too, but I'm gonna test it out with the box - vocals and acoustic guitar.

It's a great little unit to take along to sessions too.

thanks buddy

Alan  ;)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2011, 02:50:29 PM by Almo2504 »
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Alan Morley

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Re: Recording Your Sound
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2011, 10:29:27 AM »

Zoom H1

I have been playing around with the Zoom H1 and realised that you can actually use it as a mic straight into your computer sound card.

My sound card on the latop is an external Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi which can record in 24 bit and has mic and line in inputs.

Using the headphone socket on the Zoom H1 you can plug into the sound card and record in 24 bit - sounds ok so far, next thing to look at is if I can use my 1/4" jack to USB lead to record bypassing the soundcard.

It does sound better than my usual condenser mics as far I I can tell at the moment.

Alan
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