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[Steve_freereeder]

Believe me, it gets even stronger if you have perfect pitch. One of the reasons why I bought BCC# was because I was getting bored of G, D and A. I've always been a sharp person though, I've always enjoyed playing things in sharps rather than flats. In fact I am still puzzled as to why other clarinet players prefer to play in flats, in my mind the sharp fingerings are easier (especially E), which  is probably just because I prefer playing in them.

The scary thing is that in my mind, G# major sounds different from Ab major, even when playing on piano. It doesn't, at all, it sounds exactly the same, but I perceive it as different, dependent on which key I think of myself as playing in. That's psychology stuff though.

In danger of serious thread drift here (for which I apologise) but this is something I very really interesting.
As a clarinettist, I do tend to fall into the stereotype of preferring the flat keys, and I will readily pick up my A clarinet and play in a flat key rather than play in a sharp key on my Bb. But when I'm playing saxophone, sharp keys come out as easy as anything. I have no qualms about playing in say B major or C# major. Perhaps it's something to do with the fingering layout of the two instruments and the fact that the saxophone overblows in octaves and the clarinet overblows in 12ths. 

[squeezy]

Of course - I entirely agree with the sentiments that different keys give a different feel to music - of course they do.  I really remember the excitement of getting a C/F after many years of strictly D/G playing, it was a real inspiration. I don't suffer from perfect pitch but at the time I was sure I had worn out all the sensors in my ears that receive the notes in the D and G scales - playing in F and Dmin seemed so vibrant for a bit.

I do, howeve have "melodeon pitch" which means I can almost instantly tell in a session that a tune is not in a Melodeon (D/G) friendly key without checking against my instrument. Don't know why that is, but I certainly have it.

Cheers

Squeezy

[Steve_freereeder]

I do, however have "melodeon pitch" which means I can almost instantly tell in a session that a tune is not in a Melodeon (D/G) friendly key without checking against my instrument. Don't know why that is, but I certainly have it.

Yes - me too. I think that after years of playing I have developed a 'pitch memory' for D and G.
And I agree with you about C/F boxes. I think they sound gorgeous!

[Anahata]

The 3rd Symphony 'Eroica' is in the key of E-flat major, which somehow has a solid, rounded feel to it. If it were to be transposed just one semitone higher and played in the key of E major it would feel quite different: E major has a bright, almost brittle, feel to it.

And although the absolute pitch standard has shifted about over the centuries, this difference still applies. Even in equal temperament, the feel of one key compared with another has to do with the relationship between the two keys in question, rather than their absolute pitch standards. I don't know why exactly

It has partly to do with instruments and the way they produce sound.
G, D, A and E all have important notes on the open strings of a violin, which make a brighter sound.
In flat keys every note has to be stopped.
I suspect the tone of brass and wind instruments is cleaner on notes in their natural scales too.

That doesn't explain why every key is in a different colour on a piano, though. Unless there's a musical memory involved.

[nemethmik]

It has partly to do with instruments and the way they produce sound.

Excellent point, I would not say "partly", I'd rather say, completely.

[Peter_T]

That doesn't explain why every key is in a different colour on a piano, though. Unless there's a musical memory involved.

Synaesthesia?

[Anahata]

That doesn't explain why every key is in a different colour on a piano, though. Unless there's a musical memory involved.

Synaesthesia?

Yes indeed, but putting a name to it doesn't explain it.

[Peter_T]

That doesn't explain why every key is in a different colour on a piano, though. Unless there's a musical memory involved.

Synaesthesia?

Yes indeed, but putting a name to it doesn't explain it.

Indeed not. Someone I know is very clear that one particular note or key - can't remember enough detail - has a particular colour. D is blue, say. One or two other people about with it in the same circle. Seems utterly weird to me, but then I don't have it and wonder what it would be like to have it. Sounds pretty intimidating. How the brain connections go, I suppose, which doesn't help at all.

What would be a green key for The Ash Grove?

[zubz]

That doesn't explain why every key is in a different colour on a piano, though. Unless there's a musical memory involved.

Synaesthesia?

Yes indeed, but putting a name to it doesn't explain it.

Indeed not. Someone I know is very clear that one particular note or key - can't remember enough detail - has a particular colour. D is blue, say. One or two other people about with it in the same circle. Seems utterly weird to me, but then I don't have it and wonder what it would be like to have it. Sounds pretty intimidating. How the brain connections go, I suppose, which doesn't help at all.

What would be a green key for The Ash Grove?

All this thread drifting smells a bit purple to me. 

[michik]

I will play it in C     .. its the best key for it on a G/C melodon
The ABC in the very first post is actually for an A/D melodeon,
because a G-pull bass is required which is not available on D/G

[nemethmik]

I will play it in C

This is exactly the key a piper would play it on G set. Michael, we have our next common session tune. Can Ash Grove be played in set of tunes for the dance mazurka?

[Howard Mitchell]

http://www.icmpc8.umn.edu/proceedings/ICMPC8/PDF/AUTHOR/MP040020.PDF
may be of interest.

H

[Sandy]

I would like Rees to play it in F#minor please  

Sandy
 

[Alan Morley]

In snooker terms - can we have a re-rack and start this thread all over again.....

[HallelujahAl]

because a G-pull bass is required which is not available on D/G

I'm glad you mention that   ...thus if I were attempting to play it in D on a standard D/G melodeon (as pammylou's first question indicated) I would fudge it, in other words forget the G# altogether and probably either stay on the top A or modulate to B (instead of the G#) as that is the third note in the E chord triad. Both of which sound perfectly acceptable, and frankly make the tune easier to play - though I agree it's not ideal.  
AL

[Owen Woods]

I don't suffer from perfect pitch

It does have advantages, sometimes Just a right bugger if you try to play a transposing instrument. Means that I have to relearn the instrument every time I take up a new system, i.e. for me C/F is a completely different box to D/G, it's just that it doesn't take long to get my head around it, since my muscles know the patterns. Ollie will attest though that any attempt to play his Bb/Eb ends in disaster.

As for the melodeon keys business, everybody who is exposed to music a lot over time develops relative pitch to a greater or lesser degree as your brain remembers the pitches of different notes. It is a skill and can be learned.

It has partly to do with instruments and the way they produce sound.
G, D, A and E all have important notes on the open strings of a violin, which make a brighter sound.
In flat keys every note has to be stopped.
I suspect the tone of brass and wind instruments is cleaner on notes in their natural scales too.

That doesn't explain why every key is in a different colour on a piano, though. Unless there's a musical memory involved.

The general explanation of why flats are easier on brass is that on every brass and woodwind instrument, the natural thing is to lengthen the tune, therefore flats are easier. Stringed instrument the natural thing to do is shorten the string, so sharps are easier. I've never been quite convinced by this.

As for colours, my girlfriend has synaesthesia and I've always been slightly envious. Mind you, she is slightly envious of me for having perfect pitch, because she doesn't. She can identify chords by the colour, I can identify notes by the sound. Between us we can do a pretty good job

Perhaps this discusssion ought to be split

[Steve_freereeder]

The general explanation of why flats are easier on brass is that on every brass and woodwind instrument, the natural thing is to lengthen the tune, therefore flats are easier. Stringed instrument the natural thing to do is shorten the string, so sharps are easier. I've never been quite convinced by this.

No - I'm not convinced by this either. On wind instruments, I think it is more to do with the fingering layout and patterns. On a clarinet the basic scale obtained by lifting your fingers from the tube one by one, is a scale of F major (in the low register). The Bb is 'built in' to the fingering system, which is why I think flat keys are easier on a clarinet, you already have a flying start. To produce B natural and sharps such as F#, you have to use 'fork fingering'  and other sharps are produced by the keywork.

On a penny whistle, the basic scale obtained by lifting fingers one by one is D major, so you have two sharps already built in to the system, Hence the whistle 'likes' sharp keys more than flat keys.  The saxophone is much more akin to a whistle in its fingering system than it is to a clarinet, so I think that's why sharp keys on a saxophone are easier.

Not being a string player I don't think I'm qualified to comment, other than to say that the open strings of G D A and E on a fiddle are all foundations for sharp keys rather than flat keys.

Perhaps this discusssion ought to be split 

Yes, perhaps it should! 

[ladydetemps]

Yes, perhaps it should! 

I'll do it....What title do you want for the thread?

[Steve_freereeder]

Yes, perhaps it should! 

I'll do it....What title do you want for the thread?

Sarah - just hang fire on this a bit longer, if you don't mind, please. I've a feeling that the thread drift is about to expire soon anyway, and also it is mixed up with relevant, on-topic, snippets concerning playing of the Ash Grove.

[ladydetemps]

Yes, perhaps it should! 

I'll do it....What title do you want for the thread?

Sarah - just hang fire on this a bit longer, if you don't mind, please. I've a feeling that the thread drift is about to expire soon anyway, and also it is mixed up with relevant, on-topic, snippets concerning playing of the Ash Grove.

Make your mind up.