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Author Topic: other keys in A/D/G  (Read 7055 times)

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Chris Ryall

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Re: other keys in A/D/G
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2011, 07:26:24 AM »

Attached is the low end layout of my GCF. My ADG is equivalent.  It looks a bit weird at first sight. And probably at second and third too.

Firstly - I really enjoyed that botoşani hora - thanks for it. 

As for your low end - hmmm - you seem well toward a 3½ row system there - except that your half row is at the end.  If I might compare it to'standard'  Castagnari Mori  - http://forum.melodeon.net/files/site/DG21plus5castagnari.gif.   Equivalent in C/F (ignoring your G row for the moment)

   Db/Eb    G#/*F#    Eb/*C    db/Eb  g#/*f#

.. as far as I  can work out - the JB 3½ button accidental system isn't too far from this  He already has the *starred notes in his main scales.  Ignore these, and making slightly different detail decisions like a reversed Bb and that very clever double G# - pretty close?

And doesn't it handle F harmonic minor beautifully, also it's mode 4 that you term C freygish? That's a totally new word on me, but its notes are the same as the Spanish/flamenco/phrygian major scale

JB, you've certainly resolved the missing F Bb Eb (Eb G# Db for you)  issue, which was the 'nub of the problem'  in my post.  Begs the question whether an effectively 3 row + 3.5 button layout remains a true double quint? Its aficionados should best decide that.

Yes, I could happily play such kit - though my experiment with D/E reversal taught my that I'm too old to absorb radically new fingerings.
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jb

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Re: other keys in A/D/G
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2011, 09:57:37 AM »

Firstly - I really enjoyed that botoşani hora - thanks for it.  
Thanks Chris. Yes it's a cracking tune, all the more fun for being a blatant cut-and-shut. Even the modalities are completely different in the two halves, the first in C freygish and the second in C lordknowswhat (major with flattened 6th).

Quote
freygish? That's a totally new word on me, but its notes are the same as the Spanish/flamenco/phrygian major scale
The accepted view is that it's a yiddish corruption of phrygian. Although, as you note, this is phrygian major rather than minor.

Quote
JB, you've certainly resolved the missing F Bb Eb (Eb G# Db for you)  issue, which was the 'nub of the problem'  in my post.  Begs the question whether an effectively 3 row + 3.5 button layout remains a true double quint? Its aficionados should best decide that.

I realised that it might have been more helpful for comparison if I had posted the equivalent layout on my ADG. So I'm attaching it to this post. And I'll refer to this, rather than the GCF, in what follows.

I'm quite content if people think this is no longer a true quint system. It is what it is. I'm not too worried about what to call it or how to classify it. But as it happens I don't think it is very different in principle from standard quint boxes, taking this to be an example.

Most of my low end is just that - low end extensions of the 3 major rows. The selection and pattern here is slightly unusual, although notice that the same cross-row key sequence gives me a low G arpeggio on push, and A arpeggio on pull.

Other than that, my true 'accidentals' here are the (for me crucial) A#, and the (low and high) Eb and F. But these are also fairly standard (see above). I just have them arranged in a slightly different way. So overall I don't really have anything more, accidental-wise, than is standard. In fact I have sacrificed the 'standard' G# so that I can have A# on both push and pull.

And for me, the purpose of these accidentals is not to allow playing in different keys, but instead to provide for some different modalities in the same base keys, in which I include F# major/freygish (E on the GCF). What I play is largely driven by what is available at the bass end, which again is standard.

This layout does include the high and low Eb and F, which Miki, a few posts back, said was essential for some Hungarian tunes. As it happens I do play some Hungarian stuff, for example this one. In fact one of my long-standing passions is Hungarian/Transylvanian Táncház music, although I don't play much of it on the box partly because it's often bloody complicated, but also because you can't really capture the important textures.

Obviously this system doesn't give me access to all keys and modulations. I have the PA for that. I'd like to experiment, as Miki has done, with lighter CBAs instead (of the PA). But, like Chris, I think I'm too old to start over with something so different now.

But overall I much prefer playing the 3-row quint (or whatever you want to call it) than the PA. Mainly, for me, this is because the smaller box (and I think the bisonority has something to do with this, too) is more dynamic and gives you a real sense of physical/tactile connection with the notes you are producing. A kind of ability to sculpt each note and phrase dynamically in a way which just isn't there on even the lightest PA. If that's not too pseud.

And it really is extremely satisfying to bludgeon reluctant musical square pegs into the round holes of this system.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 05:13:23 PM by jb »
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george garside

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Re: other keys in A/D/G
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2011, 10:32:30 AM »

I But overall I much prefer playing the 3-row quint (or whatever you want to call it) than the PA. Mainly, for me, this is because the smaller box (and I think the bisonority has something to do with this, too) is more dynamic and gives you a real sense of physical/tactile connection with the notes you are producing. A kind of ability to sculpt each note and phrase dynamically in a way which just isn't there on even the lightest PA. I And it really is extremely satisfying to bludgeon reluctant musical square pegs into the round holes of this system.


and with this I think we all agree heartily, irrespective of our personal favouirite  'bisonoric' set up!

george ;D
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nemethmik

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Re: other keys in A/D/G
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2011, 11:34:30 AM »

And it really is extremely satisfying to bludgeon reluctant musical square pegs into the round holes of this system.
John, this was a revelationally brilliant comment. I'd like to apply a couple of modifications to my standard 3-row Hohner Coronas to be able to play a wider range of (modal) music (in the home keys, of course). Based on this layout http://forum.melodeon.net/files/site/ADG31corona.gif what modifications would you recommend? The A row has only 10 buttons on a Corona. I am thinking that the high end button(s) (B/F# or maybe G/E) can be altered for some higher pitch accidentals.
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jb

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Re: other keys in A/D/G
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2011, 06:11:02 PM »

I'd like to apply a couple of modifications to my standard 3-row Hohner Coronas to be able to play a wider range of (modal) music (in the home keys, of course). Based on this layout http://forum.melodeon.net/files/site/ADG31corona.gif what modifications would you recommend? The A row has only 10 buttons on a Corona. I am thinking that the high end button(s) (B/F# or maybe G/E) can be altered for some higher pitch accidentals.
I don't have a view on using the top end for accidentals. I think this would be very strange to play, at first. Other people may have views on this.
At the low end I'd certainly suggest binning the D on the G row and likewise the A on the D row, each of these having nearby duplicates.
Beyond that I'd hesitate to recommend anything specific, as this depends so much on what kinds of tunes you want to play. I do play some Hungarian but not enough to devote my layout to it.
If I were modifying your low end for myself, which is a different matter, then I think I'd replicate what I currently have on my D and G rows. On the A row I'd definitely keep the Eb push. That would leave me one slot (pull) for one of my current C G and A. Offhand I guess I'd try it with the C, and see how it goes.
But this almost certainly won't be your optimum. I expect you could make better use of my A# push in the D row, for example.
Sorry, Miki. Not very helpful.
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nemethmik

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Re: other keys in A/D/G
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2011, 07:04:17 PM »

http://forum.melodeon.net/files/site/ADG31corona.gif

At the low end I'd certainly suggest binning the D on the G row and likewise the A on the D row, each of these having nearby duplicates.
then I think I'd replicate what I currently have on my D and G rows. On the A row I'd definitely keep the Eb push. That would leave me one slot (pull) for one of my current C G and A. Offhand I guess I'd try it with the C, and see how it goes.
But this almost certainly won't be your optimum. I expect you could make better use of my A# push in the D row, for example.
This was terribly helpful from an experienced and brilliant world-music musician, Thank You! One more question about bass. When playing Hungarian music on my ADG, I play 99% in different modes (major, mixolydian, dorian and minor, and very often a combination of them within the same tune) of A, I guess I should play a (mostly) "minorish" (dorian and minor) tune on the G row against a pulled A bass + C chord cross-chord, shouldn't I?
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waltzman

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Re: other keys in A/D/G
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2011, 07:47:07 PM »

http://forum.melodeon.net/files/site/ADG31corona.gif

At the low end I'd certainly suggest binning the D on the G row and likewise the A on the D row, each of these having nearby duplicates.
then I think I'd replicate what I currently have on my D and G rows. On the A row I'd definitely keep the Eb push. That would leave me one slot (pull) for one of my current C G and A. Offhand I guess I'd try it with the C, and see how it goes.
But this almost certainly won't be your optimum. I expect you could make better use of my A# push in the D row, for example.
This was terribly helpful from an experienced and brilliant world-music musician, Thank You! One more question about bass. When playing Hungarian music on my ADG, I play 99% in different modes (major, mixolydian, dorian and minor, and very often a combination of them within the same tune) of A, I guess I should play a (mostly) "minorish" (dorian and minor) tune on the G row against a pulled A bass + C chord cross-chord, shouldn't I?


Miklos,  If almost all your tunes are in the key of A I wonder if an EAD tuning would work better for you.  The most flexible key for a three row is the middle row.  You have two full octaves of the middle row key in both directions which means you can pair virtually any note with any chord in the left hand.
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Rees

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Re: other keys in A/D/G
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2011, 08:38:09 PM »

However, the outside row is more suitable for some musics. eg. That Tex-Mex vid that Chris put up was mostly based around the home key of the outside row. (F in this case).
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Chris Ryall

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Re: other keys in A/D/G
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2011, 07:50:06 AM »

Thanks Chris. Yes it's a cracking tune, all the more fun for being a blatant cut-and-shut. Even the modalities are completely different in the two halves, the first in C freygish and the second in C lordknowswhat (major with flattened 6th).

Can't resist that challenge .. ... .... looks to be 'freygish' ( though minor) mode of Ab .. unless 'lordknowswhat'  is another bit of Yiddish  ;)

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The accepted view is that it's a yiddish corruption of phrygian. Although, as you note, this is phrygian major rather than minor.

.. DUR  :|bl

              ..but we digress
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Gandy

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Re: other keys in A/D/G
« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2011, 01:49:31 PM »

Agree and disagree (so no change there!) and would like to strike another blow against this silly and probably meaningless term 'accidental'.  If you stick a Bb into a G or Em arrangement it is anthing but 'accidental! It's a flat 5th - technically as far 'out' of the home key as one can get.  You are choosing to stick in a very 'blue' note .. hold it .. play melody through that ... detente  8)  Miraculously this works and is the basis of much of the stuff I listed above.

That reminds me, and completely off topic, but what would you call the C natural in the second part of Ashokan Farewell?   Somehow it doesn't have the feel as the Scottish flattened 7ths.   More like a sharpened B?
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nemethmik

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Re: other keys in A/D/G
« Reply #50 on: May 20, 2011, 02:05:54 PM »

but what would you call the C natural in the second part of Ashokan Farewell?   Somehow it doesn't have the feel as the Scottish flattened 7ths.   More like a sharpened B?
 :D
Eastern-Europen folk music by nature (no contemporary compositions) is full of the changing 3rds and 7th back and forth during the same tune. The composer, Jay Ungar (meaning Hungarian, BTW) did this "trick" to make his tune more interesting  ???
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 02:08:02 PM by Miklos Nemeth »
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Chris Ryall

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Re: other keys in A/D/G
« Reply #51 on: May 20, 2011, 06:18:34 PM »

Yeah! lets go off topic ... (never though about this, but its a lovely musical phrase)

      I don't hear it as a passing note at all (what does it pass to)?  The preceding tune notes spell out the D7 arpegio in detail D - F# - A - C  even returning to the clashing  F# a second time (in the usual way we voice it).  No that is a bog standard D7 with its Cnatl bold as brass and thus a Dominant - we have modulated into G ...

.. and sure enough the next chord is G  :D but the tune returns to using C#!  So its G lydian with its #4 lovely tinkling over the G bass.

We've spent just a ½ bar in the new key centre returning immediately to the D scale. Clever! I have to say it feels closer to a western jazzer's modulation to me.  Despite the guy's name, a Csárdás player would probably slip in an Eb passing note between the chord's D and F# to maintain major/minor ambiguity. Interestingly both that and Enat work - but they have quite different feel.

Always thought that tune was cool  8)
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