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Author Topic: Memorising tunes  (Read 4868 times)

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Alan Morley

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Memorising tunes
« on: June 11, 2011, 10:00:49 AM »

I just watched a video on You Tube of a great box player going through some Irish Reels - I can't get my head around reels...

There are some tunes / styles that I can take too quite quickly, however Cajun tunes and Irish Reels just don't sink in. I find that one reel sounds pretty much like another to my ears and along with Cajun I can't find the tune amongst all the ornimentation.

Does anyone else have problems with particular styles of music - either remembering or actually playing the tunes ?

Alan
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sqwzboxstudent

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Re: Memorising tunes
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2011, 10:11:17 AM »

im ok with faster styles like jigs and reels, but when i slow down for waltzes and hornpipes i struggle a bit
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Alan Morley

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Re: Memorising tunes
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2011, 10:24:54 AM »

Same as you, really. I think there are those who hear tunes in note sequences and those who feel it as a chord progression.  Are you left handed?

I'm not left-handed Chris.

I hear tunes in 'blocks' or 'patterns' which repeat and I tend to learn tunes in chunks all fitted together - I just struggle with reels - they all sound very similar to me...

Alan
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Lester

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Re: Memorising tunes
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2011, 10:29:41 AM »

Why do Irish Tunes have names?

So you can tell them apart  ;D

Tufty

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Re: Memorising tunes
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2011, 10:32:50 AM »

Most Irish tunes get past me, especially reels. Here in the North East most music sessions are Irish based, so I have tried for many years to get to grips with Irish tunes but with only very limited success - polkas are OK. On the other hand French tunes come quite naturally. Regarding Cajun, at a workshop many years ago I was advised not to try to learn loads of Cajun tunes but to focus on a few and let others sort of soak in by having the stuff playing in the car etc. The idea was that when a tune was "ready" for me to learn it would let me know - I would find myself humming it without thinking.
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george garside

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Re: Memorising tunes
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2011, 10:46:24 AM »

 many jigs & reels contain  a lot of repeated bars,

eg dorset 4 hand reel  2nd line same as 1st line exept for last bar. 4trh line 1st 2 bars same as ub 3rd  line, 3rd bar only 1 note different to same in same bar in 3rd line.

Kesh jig 2nd line 1st 3 bars same as 1st line. 4th line  1st bbar same as 3rd line,second bar only 2 notes different to same bar in 3rd line.

 davy nicknack  only 5 different bars.

ryans polka just a glance at the dots reveals the same pattern in several bars - no need to be able to dot read (althoughj it  can help) just look for repeated patterns.

If learning tunes by ear the trick is to listen analytically in order to identify repeats raher than sitting back & enjoying the overall performance.

george
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george garside

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Re: Memorising tunes
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2011, 10:50:57 AM »

forgot to mention but I generally find it much easier to play a 'new' tune if I have fisrt reached the stage of being able to hum or whistle them  - its then a question of getting the fingers to do what the gob was doing all by itself without the need for concious thought or instructions to open  / shut or whatever!

george ;)
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Memorising tunes
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2011, 10:35:27 AM »

Almo: Maybe you need to listen to what your head is saying i.e. if the music doesn't 'grab' you then is it worth learning?

I've just beein idly browsing the forum and looked at the 'BC' thread somewhere close, and clicked onto a much rated Irish player. I was stunned at how 'cold' it left me. I realised no matter how excellent his keyboard work was, I simply had no desire to continue listening let alone learn it. Yet some recent threads by Chris Ryall of French players has blown me away by their virtuosity.

George has hit the nail on the head ( as ever! ). I often don't choose which tune to learn, I realies that even after a single listening, there's something that catches my ear and enters the brain. Repeated listenings means I *will* learn it whether I actively try or not, it just gets absorbed. Then I reach for a squeezy thing, and start to explore the buttons.
If something doesn't 'catch' my ear, I don't learn it, unless other pressures are involved ( like having to learn something for a gig/dance etc ).
As a new-ish melodeon player, I'm finding that sometimes I try to learn a tune to simply find out something i.e. where an accidental lives, and how to play that in sequence. If I don't like it, I'm finding it doesn't stay in the brain.
....but we are all different!
that's my thruppence
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Alan Morley

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Re: Memorising tunes
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2011, 11:13:20 AM »

Almo: Maybe you need to listen to what your head is saying i.e. if the music doesn't 'grab' you then is it worth learning?

Q

Tunes are wonderful things though. What might not grab you at first, can set you off thinking of other ways to play it, and turn it into something you enjoy.

Some of the tunes of the month here did that to me, Cheshire Waltz is a good example - I didn't like it until I heard Anahata's version, then it took me ages to learn it.
I think it's a 'keeper' now and I will continue to play it.
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Keithypete.

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Re: Memorising tunes
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2011, 11:19:08 AM »

forgot to mention but I generally find it much easier to play a 'new' tune if I have fisrt reached the stage of being able to hum or whistle them  - its then a question of getting the fingers to do what the gob was doing all by itself without the need for concious thought or instructions to open  / shut or whatever!

george ;)


  This is my experience too. Somehow a tune gets through the impermeable bit and works its way out through the fingers. Sometimes. Its great when it happens like that. Learning by lug is a skill, and as such requires practice - work even.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Memorising tunes
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2011, 11:47:07 AM »

I must say I find fast Irish tunes difficult to learn- I find them so intricate and so full of little melodic differences that it becomes quite a 'mind game' to get them to stick in my brain,  Also, I think I've got used to subconsciously learning some kind of chord structure when I listen to a new tune, and of course many Irish players don't really do that.  So to find the chord structure first and then fit the fingering around it is for me harder with these tunes.  It took me months to get my head round learning to play a set of Dusty Windowsills and Blarney Pilgrim for dancing - 48-bar jigs, and that was largely because we in the band were trying to agree which version (of the many around) for each tune and chords that we liked best.  Having to unlearn the wrong one and refingering the right one took me a long time.  But in the end it was worth it - I'll never be an Irish tune player, my brain doesn't seem to work like that.  But these two tunes are quite satisfying to play, though I still have to stick to the dots to play them.
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mory

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Re: Memorising tunes
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2011, 11:56:14 AM »

I just watched a video on You Tube of a great box player going through some Irish Reels - I can't get my head around reels...

There are some tunes / styles that I can take too quite quickly, however Cajun tunes and Irish Reels just don't sink in. I find that one reel sounds pretty much like another to my ears and along with Cajun I can't find the tune amongst all the ornamentation.

Does anyone else have problems with particular styles of music - either remembering or actually playing the tunes ?

Alan


Hi Almo, I think you hit the nail on the head with "I cant find the tune amongst all the ornamentation" , neither culture teaches the basics in an ornamented style but just the tune,( followed by the addition of ornament, variation, etc) which I find most often resemble so called English tunes in the easier to analyse way they are often presented, but give the same tune any amount of variation and ornament and it becomes something far harder to dissect, I certainly get what your saying in terms of the difficulty and find it usefull to step away from the more complex version unless I'm looking at specifics ie. regional style personal style of an individual etc, one of the "dangers" of trying to copy a heavily ornamented piece is that you loose the space to put your own stamp on it. the beauty of all this is that this is precisely how personnel, regional and indeed international variation appear, if your interested in having a go at an Irish reel or two or maybe a bit of Cajun then it might help to search for a beginners version or at least uncluttered, all said and done its generally quite possible to take most tunes and turn them into particular styles by applying the specific traits of a chosen area, all good fun I'm sure you'll agree, All the Best mory

p.s. Daniel Coyles The Talent Code is a fascinating insight into the creation of memory in regard to all this.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 12:03:33 PM by mory »
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Alan Morley

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Re: Memorising tunes
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2011, 12:49:48 PM »

Mory..The idea of 'copying' a player or style of playing is always odd to me as I think it's good to try and put your own spin on tunes. It's great to listen to as many ways of playing tunes as you can, and some ideas will always sink in with the tunes.

I think the musician who had most influence on my playing isn't a box player - but the master fiddler Dave Swarbrick, right from his days with The Ian Campbell Folk Group.
http://www.brumbeat.net/iancampb.htm

I always loved Swarbs ability, inventivness and sheer sence of fun and quirkyness, plus his ability to select fantastic tunes. You can hear his influence in the playing of Chris Leslie (Fairport) and Liza Carthy. I found it easy to get Swarbrick tune into the memory.
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Bob Ellis

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Re: Memorising tunes
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2011, 01:09:01 PM »

I think the point about liking a tune sufficiently so that you find that you have internalised it in your mind before before you begin learning to play it on the box is well made.

Our Morris side has an extensive repertoire of dances, the tunes for most of which I have been playing for years. I like most of them and have no problem playing them, but  there are a couple that I don't particularly like and those are the ones that won't stick properly in my mind, despite them having been in our repertoire for years. We were performing at the Grange-over-Sands Edwardian Festival yesterday and I was leading the musicians. I found myself willing the squire not to choose those two dances because I was afraid that I would fall of them.

On the other hand, I was listening to the Banquet of Boxes CD in the car on the way to Grange and found myself humming Squeezy's version of George Green's College Hornpipe at odd moment throughout the day. I picked up my melodeon this morning, never having played that tune before, and it just flowed almost effortlessly from my brain to my fingers. So, if a tune is in your memory you can probably play it, but if it ain't there....
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Marje

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Re: Memorising tunes
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2011, 01:34:17 PM »

So, if a tune is in your memory you can probably play it, but if it ain't there....

That's absolutely the case for me.

I find the trouble with a lot of Irish tunes is that many of them they are rhythmically identical (diddle-diddle or diddly-diddly), and that, to my ear, they lack any distinctive melody that you could sing aloud. They don't require much in the way of chords or harmonies either. This leaves the subtle and tricksy tune-patterns, plus any ornamentation, and I not only find these difficult to learn (i.e. to get them into my head in the first place), I don't find them satisfying to play.

A very good player of Irish music once said to me that it was the almost mathematical challenge of remembering all the twiddly variations that he enjoyed, as a sort of mental exercise. That's fine, but it's not how I enjoy music. He probably gets bored playing tuneful, bumpy English pieces, whereas I love clear, bell-like tunes that lend themselves to strong chords/harmonies.

Maybe some of our brains are just programmed to respond to certain kinds of music. I find it much easier to respond to and recall many French and Swedish tunes than Irish ones.

I'm not suggesting, by the way, that there's anything racial in this; the Irish player I mentioned is in fact thoroughly English, whereas my (Scottish) ancestry is at least substantially "Celtic" (with no trace of Swedish that I'm aware of). It's probably partly cultural, and partly just individual variation, just as I happen to love coffee and hate tea.

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mory

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Re: Memorising tunes
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2011, 02:42:31 PM »

 - they all sound very similar to me...

Alan
[/quote]

so do most of these responses  ;D  do I detect a pattern emerging, its not a ....ist thing but.. mory
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Memorising tunes
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2011, 02:53:34 PM »

Almo: Yes I do agree that some tunes 'creep up on you' after several times through, and sometimes take longer to stick after possibly dismissing them first time through. But either immediately, or by slow absorption, they *do* stick in the brain. Then it's merely getting them to the fingers. Which can be somewhat absorbing  ;)
I can totally agree and understand Bob's view of a couple of his morris tunes. He has to play them for dance, but they don't want to stick in the brain.

After posting, I recalled an interview recently with " Whispering" Bob Harris, talking abouth new compilations of The Old Grey Whistle Test prog's I'm sure many of us remember from our past. He was asked about the title of the programme.
" The Old Greys" were the senior exec's of a massive music publishing company in New York (?) who were responsible for producing the records for the public. The demo singles were played to them, and then the producers listened. When the 'Old Greys' were heard later in the day walking around the corridors of power whistling one of the demo records *that* was the one they then released. It had a 'hook' that kept part of the tune in the brain.
I think the same can be true for wanting to learn a tune. It has a 'hook' that gets into the brain and won't let go.

Marje: I totally disagree.
How can you dislike Tea ???
Totally bonkers idea  ;)

As for the rest, yes I do wonder if we're 'pre-programmed' to like/dislike tunes. Having come from an English Concertina where I simply played the melody, part of my wanting to play melodeon was to put an accompaniament to the tunes. I find it strange that Irish don't, though obviously can't through the sheer intricacy of some melodies.
As you say, lumpy bumpy English tunes get me going. It's a whole body thing!

Mory's just posted whilst i write.
I do remember a very good Irish friend ( stunning fiddler ) and I discussing such things a long time ago when on a morris tour in Dublin. The English v's Irish ceilidh was also an interesting comparison.
We concluded the English ceilidh was lumpy and bumpy, rhythmic, with the accent on patterns, whereas the Irish ceilidh was far more step oriented. Therefore the music reflected the necessity to play for the dances. Possibly total rubbish, as we'd by then consumed vast quantities of black liquid  :|glug
....but it was an interesting and exceeding friendly comparison, as we both slithered to the floor!
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

LDbosca

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Re: Memorising tunes
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2011, 03:24:46 PM »

- they all sound very similar to me...

Alan


so do most of these responses  ;D  do I detect a pattern emerging, its not a ....ist thing but.. mory
[/quote]

Haha! Maybe it's like the way a foreign language sounds like gibberish to those who don't understand it... ;D

mory

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Re: Memorising tunes
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2011, 03:58:57 PM »

- they all sound very similar to me...

Alan


so do most of these responses  ;D  do I detect a pattern emerging, its not a ....ist thing but.. mory

Haha! Maybe it's like the way a foreign language sounds like gibberish to those who don't understand it... ;D
[/quote]


Isn't that where English people start pointing and shouting a bit louder  ;) or is that just me ?


Just been to your site , great playing by the way Luke. mory
« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 04:04:58 PM by mory »
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LDbosca

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Re: Memorising tunes
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2011, 04:20:54 PM »

Ah thanks very much, that stuff's kinda old now and it's a bit ropey in parts, must get a decent track or two up when I get my new box next month. I'm fairly sure I've forgotten the login for that myspace account too...oops!
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