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As now - 3rd note start with Ab/Bb and Eb/F 'accidentals'

3 (4.5%)

3rd note start with extra low scale

4 (6%)

'4th note start'  extra low scale AND accidentals

54 (80.6%)

I'll offer something different in a post

6 (9%)

Total Members Voted: 65

[george garside]

I can't see any reason  why makers could not do 23 buttons as more or less standaard  and wonder whether its a 'DG's  are normally required to have have 21 buttons thing' in the minds of both makers & floggers  of boxes. Scarlatti (chinese) do their posh ,i.e with italian reeds for hobgob.   in 21 button DG & 23 button BC, presumably at the request of hobgob!. Both DG & BC are probably sold in relatively small numbers compared with CF & GC's worldwide

I would think few if any (going by the poll) DGists would  insist on  21 rather than 23 if the latter   was  not much more expensive.

george

[Peter_T]

There used to be a cliché that you can have things any two of fast, cheap and right.

I have a little idea of which manufacturers are factory-based, cottage industry or one-man band craftsmen.

As for 21 rather than  23 button, the major supplier may  be Hohner.  My immediate reaction is that their UK-market D/G simply has different reeds in what is an otherwise standard piece of kit. if so, the UK stuff should cost very much the same as its continental cousin. Does this make sense or is there a subtle variation in levers, pallets etc or whatever or have I just grossly over-simplified?

[Chris Ryall]

That's a pretty solid 80%+ consensus then.  Have locked voting and adjusted the thread's title but debate can continue. eg

• Does anyone have a keyboard layout in the 4th+accs form that I might circulate to manufacturers?
• Are there any melodeon repairs shop out there willing to do conversions at some sort of set price?

:|glug  PS met up with Frans v.d.Aa in Ch.Ars festival. Lovely kit - very tempted to commission as per above ;)


[edit] Hi Lester. Just beat me to the edit! I'd have Ab/Bb and F/Eb, Anahata likes his 'C'  But I'd
          suggest the 'what it's about' of this thread is exchanging two at the dusty end for something useful?

[Lester]

That's a pretty solid consensus then. I've locked the voting but the thread can continue.

  o  Does anyone have a keyboard layout in the 4th+accs form that I could circulate to manufacturers?

I can make one but did we reach a consensus on what should be on the two "new" buttons, my version attached

 o Are there any melodeon repairs shop out there willing to do conversions at some sort of set price?

 

For me a single set price would be difficult, for instance to do the work on a Pokerwork with Hohner reeds would be cheaper than on a Castagnari Lilium with Italian reeds. Others may have a different/better view

[Theo]

Exactly Lester, and add to that the difference between single voice, two voice or three or even four voice boxes.

Then there will be possible other jobs to be done at the same time such as replacing valves.

[Theo]

That's a pretty solid 80%+ consensus then. 

Which sounds very impressive, but when its 54 (3.6%) out of 1491 members it looks less compelling.

[Microbot]

Hi Chris, Theo and all,

.... I am completely 'sold' on the idea of 4th button start + accidentals, with the D-row G/A and G-row B/C which is favoured by Anahata, Theo and some others ... It's not just 'extra notes' ... the layout WORKS, giving you a complete lower G-scale, also working rythmically and chordally with the rest of the layout.

But all of this is 'Melnet chat' - and as Theo observes, even this 'consensus' is a tiny number of the total Melnet membership! I think this idea needs some more commercial evaluation and support. Might it not be a good idea at this stage to approach the Music Room, Hobgoblin and (say) Eagle Music, plus the Button Box in USA? Their support as potential buyers would be important for a company like Hohner. The honest opinion, and hopefully support, of the Music Room could be key.

I can't imagine it would take much (anything?) for Hohner to produce a batch of these instruments as Pokerworks and Morganes, but they would need to be confident of selling them, and the support of major Folk retailers would be important. In all of this, someone ought to produce a summary of the arguments, backed up by this thread, plus perhaps the thread by GCFMan/Steve, which is closely related.... http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,7019.0.html

Might I also suggest that some of the 'chat' about 'inferior' Hohner quality of Chinese instruments is less than helpful here. I think one has to be fair and honest in this. I think the current pokerworks do lack the robust build of earlier German made instruments. But you could argue that these were almost belt-and-braces in their solid build. On the plus side, the tuning of these Chinese-built Hohners is much better, with improved pallet-surfaces also. I haven't played one I haven't liked. And the Hohner Morganes I have worked on have been really nice.

I also agree with both of Lester's recent points ...

It would be impossible to do a 'set price' on conversions with so many makes/models

And as Theo notes ... "Then there will be possible other jobs to be done at the same time such as replacing valves" ... you can certainly add to that some chamber-work.

I can't wait to switch my own 3rd button-start Pressed Wood to this layout, especially after setting up one like this for a customer - and then having to send it off!

cheers

Mike R

[Thrupenny Bit]

Mike: your conversion to the idea of the 4th button start is quite enlightening, and thanks for sharing it with us all.
I think Theo's statistics show currently we are a vociferous minority. If we want this to happen, we must take a course of action as you describe - open up the idea to the people supplying the instruments who can then feed it back.
Most people buying a melodeon for the first time have absolutely no idea what this all means. A friend had explained what a 3rd button start meant i.e. ' the lead note for each row is on button 3'  but as a beginner I had no idea of the implications.
After a while I was aware of having notes I never used, but lacked some I could see would be advantageous. As a raw beginner there is just * so much* to take on board these nuances are not apparent or relevant at the time.

I'm sure the general melodeon buying public simply put up with whatever comes on the box, so wouldn't mind if it was 3rd or 4th button start, they'd just go with it. That's what I did at Sidmouth last year, I just wanted something I could play. By talking to the main suppliers and sellers to get a change at the  point of sale, maybe that is the way forward.
Q

[Chris Ryall]

Which sounds very impressive, but when its 54 (3.6%) out of 1491 members it looks less compelling.

Actually - as we claim to speak for Britain in this,  54 out of 61,838,154* is about 0.00008732%

 .. but we should perhaps regard ourselves as 'opinion formers'  

[edit] just to add that I've syndicated this thread "as is" to Music Room, Hobgoblin,  Eagle Music, and Button Box USA via either an email or their contact page. Obviously they may have their own commercial viewpoint - but I hope they might note the comment here. Basically the 3rd start box never made any sense as a practical instrument

*2009 World Bank estimate - what's happened to that census  

[Thrupenny Bit]

well done Chris.....let's wait for the response.
....but let's not hold our breaths 
cheers
Q

[Theo]

Basically the 3rd start box never made any sense as a practical instrument

True for a two-row, but not for a 2.5 row, and debatable for an instrument with a low reed.

[Jon Loomes]

Basically the 3rd start box never made any sense as a practical instrument

Well...it kind of does on a G/C, but on a D/G it's just too high, which is why we started introducing 4th button start boxes about a year or so ago.

Cheers,
J

[waltzman]

Basically the 3rd start box never made any sense as a practical instrument

True for a two-row, but not for a 2.5 row, and debatable for an instrument with a low reed.

One instance where you would miss those top two buttons is if you play many french tunes that are arranged for playing on a G/C in the top octave.  I do this all the time on my ADG Corona II.  Everything is a compromise and it, once again, depends on your repertoire.

[Thrupenny Bit]

On previous pages of this thread we've discussed G/C v's D/G, and it was made clear that we are talking about 'normal' D/G 2 row boxes that are, I assume, what the majority buy and play, or in my case buy and try and play!
It was acknowledged that G/C's are different, with lower pitched reeds as opposed to the 'dog whistle' reeds that are on the knee end of a D/G.

Jon: ' we started introducing about a year ago'.....is that on your own brand Sandpipers?
If it is, I take that as a significant start. It seems a very popular box, so it feels like we've already got a toe in the door.
( if not I've jumped to a conclusion rather embarrassingly! )
cheers
Q

[Chris Ryall]

well done Chris.....let's wait for the response.  ....but let's not hold our breaths     cheers Q

My ears were going slightly blue - but we've something already from Music room above and I've has a more cautious email from Pete McClelland at Hobgoblin. He raises the 'extra stretch' issue, but I'm presently stretching 5 and 4 buttons respecively for pull Ab and push C - its OK.


Are there any here who'd actually buy a 4th+accs box - say a Hohner if it were 'same price'?
I note Cleckheaton have these already, and declarations of intent might encourage other importers.

[JohnA]

If I was looking for a box, yes, I'd buy one. I've already had my Handry ADG (which was already 4th button start) converted to the 'Anahata' configuration and have ordered a Castagnari Big with the same configuration. I agree with all the positive comments that have been said about this layout - it works beautifully.

Cheers     John

[waltzman]

John,

Since you already have a low A and B on your A row did you not do something different than the G/A& B/C on the D and G rows?   What did you put on the A row?  I guess a shorter way of saying this is could I see your layout for ADG?

Michael

[JohnA]

Hi Michael

What I did not have was a 'low' C (so I lost the duplicate D on the G row to gain it) or a 'low' G (which I gained at the expense of the Fsharp on the D row). I'll post the full layout as a jpg in a few mins.

Cheers    John

[JohnA]

Hi Michael

ADG layout. Agreed, I have low A and B on the A row, but it is not always the most convenient place to go for them. I'm still low down the melodeon learning curve, so I don't pretend there aren't other options - many better!

Cheers    John

[Owen Woods]

I'm still staggered that people are still making and buying third button start instruments. For me it's a no brainer. Whether you want the pull D or the pull C is a matter of personal preference- if you have a half row then you can have both by sacrificing the lowest note of the G row. But fourth button start is definitely the way to go regardless. My first box was fourth button and when choosing the next I remember being very annoyed that some were third button. Even then I could appreciate the difference.