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Author Topic: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?  (Read 25584 times)

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Ptarmigan

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The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« on: August 09, 2008, 07:05:40 PM »

As someone who is just about to launch himself into the world of Melodeons, thanks to one of the members here, I was wondering where Melodeons fit into the scale of popular instruments on the Folk scene in England?

I live in Ireland & I know they get a fairly bad press over here, & quite honestly would be well down the pecking order, lagging behind old favourites & much more highly respected instruments like Uilleann Pipes, Fiddles, Flutes, Whistles & Concertinas. In fact, for many, they are even consigned to a 2nd tier which would include Guitars, Bouzoukis, Banjos & Bodhrans!

Personally speaking, I play my Fiddle in Session most weeks with an excellent C#/D player, who also plays a delightful Castagnari Single Row in D & I just love the sound of the Fiddle & a well played Melodeon. I especially like playing Polkas & Slides along with the one row.
However I know for a fact that many Fiddle players don't actually like playing with Melodeons.  :(

At the end of the day of course I know it's not so much down to the instrument itself, as the guy or gal whose actually driving the darned thing, whether it's welcomed or otherwise at a session!

Anyway, is this the case in England or is the Melodeon classed in the top tier over there?

Cheers
Ptarmi
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Randal Scott

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2008, 07:54:56 PM »

Greetings Dick--I recognize you from ED.  Can't speak to your questions as I'm but a relative noob in the US.

I began working with a melodeon player for folk dances last year, and since became enamoured with the box myself.  As a string player for some 35 years, I find the DBA fun to play and the sound, of course, wonderfully different from strings.  My usual musical collaborator is a fiddler as well.  I have considered playing concertina in duo (I'm mostly an anglo player but occasionally dabble with EC, too) but acquired an A/D melodeon instead.  Is that cheating?  :-\  But, I'm primarily focused on playing for dances, where volume is my concern.

« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 04:49:35 PM by catty »
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Ebor_fiddler

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2008, 10:45:30 PM »

 ;D I like playing with melodeons!  :-*
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I'm a Yorkie!
My other melodeon's a fiddle, but one of my Hohners has six strings! I also play a very red Hawkins Bazaar in C and a generic Klingenthaler spoon bass in F.!! My other pets (played) are gobirons - Hohner Marine Band in C, Hohner Tremolo in D and a Chinese Thingy Tremolo in G.

TomB-R

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2008, 10:30:46 AM »

Although players or some other instruments grouse about massed melodeons playing non-stop polkas in "English" sessions, I'd say it's definitely "top tier" in the English tradition. (I'm mainly a fiddler, by the way, so some claim to partial objectivity!)

Which is worse, a badly played box or a badly played fiddle?

The other thing is some superb melodeon players in the top ranks of English performers. Fiddle and box duos Chris Wood and Andy Cutting followed by Spiers and Boden being the obvious examples.

Go to any of the dnace festivals and what are most sides dancing to?

English "top tier" fiddle, melodeon and concertina?  ;D
Tom
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Waltham

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2008, 02:38:15 PM »

The concept of tiers of instruments in English folk music doesn't really apply in quite the way it does in Irish.  When I lived in Dublin I remember a fellow holding forth about the Chieftains, saying that "the only thing that puts them above being an average ceili band is not having a feckin' accordion' (meaning button accordion, meaning melodeon).  We don't seem to have that sort of thing here, indeed the English folk scene for many years had a sort of nervous tic that obliterated all discrimination and lots of participants would just gush about anyone and everyone, if they were doing anything they called English folk they got the full thumbs up, even if it was carbon copies of someone else repertoire or composed tosh with no relation to any tradition.  What nobody ever did was say that anything was rubbish. Which might explain June Tabor's success, Lord knows nothing else does.  I'm pleased to see that this attitude is fading, and with it is coming the confidence to play folk music instead of what-a-folk-audience-likes.

There is, however, an understanding throughout the English folk scene that the average D/G melodeon player is not necessarily the sharpest knife in the drawer (if someone tells you that they've been playing melodeon for 80 years and have never heard this, just agree with them politely won't you?)  It seems that taking up the D/G melodeon is like turning a baseball cap backwards, it instantly lowers the IQ five points.  It certainly did for me, though I became a parent around the same time which may have had a contributory effect.

There are all sorts of probable reasons for this: imagine two equally unmusical, insensitive, unpractised players, one on box and one on fiddle.  The box player  can wreck sessions and with enough determination drive the good players away until everyone left is at their level, whereas the fiddler will just be an irritant.  Indeed, the amount of learniing necessary to get to be a bad  melodeon player would, if spent on a fiddle get you to the stage of being able to take it out of its case and tighten the bow.  The reputation of the melodeon as an easy instrument to learn tends to attract those who couldn't cope with anything harder, and it's reputation as a punchy, rhythmic instrument tends to attract those deficient in the ability to generate those characteristics naturally.  The Morris Federation used to have a hand handout which summarised the capabilities of various instruments for morris which basically went "Fiddle? Too quiet.  Anglo?  Too expensive.  English?  No punch.  Melodeon? Just right!".  I wish I'd kept a copy.

Obviously none of the above applies to you, the wonderful special individual who's reading this right now...
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Falseknight

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2008, 11:47:56 PM »

Now I'm a frets player first (guitar, mandola, mandolin, bass) and after the interlude of children, I'm having a second "go" at melodeon.  Obviously, as a session player, I already sit with the second tier musicians.

I struggle most with Bodhran Players ( who frequently cannot identify time, let alone keep it) and PA players who seem to be able to drag marching snare to legato. - more syrup than Tate and Lyle!

There are many great melodeon players about - across many styles - enough to persuade me to have another go at the instrument.  Melodeon is idiosyncratic (to say the least) but it is the limitations of an instrument which give it an interesting character.
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Ellie

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2008, 12:00:49 AM »

Quote from: Waltham
The reputation of the melodeon as an easy instrument to learn

What reputation is this? I've never heard this, and neither can I imagine it to be true (being but a stuggling learner myself!). The only thing that can possibly be described as 'easy' about the melodeon is the inability to play it out of tune! (which, coming from a background of flute as my first instrument, is a wonderful blessing :))

Randal Scott

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« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 03:17:41 PM by catty »
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Ptarmigan

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2008, 11:04:54 AM »

"The nice thing about the diatonic accordion is: it's very easy to play."

Ermmm So by that, do they mean that is actually the only nice thing about the Diatonic Accordion?  ;)

Cheers
Ptarmi
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mikesamwild

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2008, 11:33:59 AM »

In England we seem to have adopted the name Melodeon for 1,2 and 3 row boxes
In Ireland it seems reserved for 1 rows and Button Accordion for 2 rows
In Ciaran Carson's book 'Last Night's Fun' he talks about 'Cat Melodeon' meaning bad stuff.
I'm sure it came about because of the perception that the push and pull jerkiness of a one row wasn't as smooth as the B/C style that evolved in the 50s and allowed fiddle and flute style rolls etc.
Now I think people are reassessing things and there is more respect for press and draw styles and one row players. people are looking at regional styles as we have done. People are playing in different keys too and fully chromatic boxes can be too smooth and the basses aren't always available, and more people are using basses for drones and chords not just oompah.

It's who is playing that counts! Listen to Johnny Connolly etc.
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Mike in Sheffield

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Ptarmigan

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2008, 11:43:15 AM »

Yes Mike, over here a Melodeon certainly is a one row beastie, although boxes like C#/D etc with the player adopting the Melodeon style of playing are also called Melodeons.

The B/C boxes are regarded as the Accordions, with their rolly, polly, slurry sound, which I must say I don't like very much.

Fact is I've been playing with a C#/D player most weeks, for nearly 20 years now & I just love the attack you get from those boxes & that style of playing.
He also has a one row Castagnari in D, which is a pure joy to play along with, especially for Polkas & Slides, which this guy plays brilliantly.

Aye, as far as the One Row goes, Johnny Connolly is God over here!  :)

Cheers
Ptarmi


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TomB-R

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2008, 01:30:45 PM »

Quote from: Waltham
The reputation of the melodeon as an easy instrument to learn

What reputation is this? I've never heard this, and neither can I imagine it to be true (being but a stuggling learner myself!). The only thing that can possibly be described as 'easy' about the melodeon is the inability to play it out of tune! (which, coming from a background of flute as my first instrument, is a wonderful blessing :))

Calling an instrument easy or hard may be a bit loaded. I think one could fairly say the melodeon is "on your side" from the start, as is a harp, and nearly all keyboard instruments.  You can pick up a melodeon for the very first time and play a nice note, or chord pretty much straight away.  That isn't to say there isn't then a lifetime's worth of improvement and artistry to be gained from that point on! I don't know what other people's experience would be but I guess someone could start on box and make a positive contribution playing with other people within a few months, (say, playing "Constant Billy" at a nice steady Cotswold pace,) whereas in the same time scale for a beginner on Uilleann pipes or fiddle, the cat would still have its paws over its ears!
Tom
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 01:34:18 PM by TomBR »
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BruceHenderson

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2008, 03:17:06 PM »

    I have had very little experience with Irish musicians (in the UK and US -- none in Ireland; but quite enough actually) but isn't one of the biggest "problems" with melodeons anywhere is that the least skilled players tend to be the ones most likely to play them louder than is thoughtful in sessions, bands, etc.?
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Pushpull

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2008, 04:02:40 PM »

Yes Mike, over here a Melodeon certainly is a one row beastie, although boxes like C#/D etc with the player adopting the Melodeon style of playing are also called Melodeons.
So when you posed your original question "The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?" were you referring specifically to one row boxes?

I suppose I don't know a great deal about the use of boxes in Irish music, but I was under the (mistaken?) impression that 2 row boxes were used quite extensively.

Roy.
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Pushpull

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2008, 04:10:48 PM »

Quote from: Waltham
The reputation of the melodeon as an easy instrument to learn

What reputation is this? I've never heard this, and neither can I imagine it to be true (being but a stuggling learner myself!). The only thing that can possibly be described as 'easy' about the melodeon is the inability to play it out of tune! (which, coming from a background of flute as my first instrument, is a wonderful blessing :))
Well I'd certainly class it as easier to play than guitar, viola and oboe, all of which I struggle/have struggled with. Not just because it's impossible to play out of tune. There seems to be something intrinsic in the bisonoric, pushpull system which makes it easy to bash out a tune (like a mouthorgan). I don't know why it should be so. Also, it has virtually automatic chords which makes it (much) easier than Anglo concertina.

I love it.

Roy.
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Ptarmigan

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2008, 04:37:56 PM »

Hey Roy, "bisonoric" ... must admit, I never heard that word before.
Does it refer to the way you have to build up the muscles in your left arm to be able to work the bellows?  ;D

For the record, I was directing this question at the English members/players here who, I understand, tend to refer to them all as Melodeons, but I could be wrong about that. However, the answer is that I was talking about both 1 & 2 row machines.

"which makes it (much) easier than Anglo concertina"  ... I do hope you are right about that because, when my Hohner arrives tomorrow morning, I should then be able to start playing tunes quite quickly, since I've played Anglo for nearly 30 years.

Cheers
Ptarmi
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Pushpull

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2008, 04:50:15 PM »

Hey Roy, "bisonoric" ... must admit, I never heard that word before.
Just means a different note on the push and pull
Quote
For the record, I was directing this question at the English members/players here who, I understand, tend to refer to them all as Melodeons,

Yep, that's me on both counts. I was a bit surprised that they might be considered 2nd class citizens in Ireland. I was under the impression they were widely used.
Quote
"which makes it (much) easier than Anglo concertina"  ... I do hope you are right about that because, when my Hohner arrives tomorrow morning, I should then be able to start playing tunes quite quickly, since I've played Anglo for nearly 30 years.
I'm sure you'll find it a doddle - based on my experience of my melodeons and Mrs. Pushpull's concertina.

Roy.
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Ptarmigan

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2008, 05:01:09 PM »

Yes indeed Roy, they are widely used over here, but many Fiddle players I know aren't too keen on playing along with them, mainly because of bad experiences of playing with very loud players. Some even refuse to play with them.

A Melodeon playing friend of mine always talks about having to apply for a Playing Visa, before he arranges to go playing at any of the Fiddle festivals in Donegal!

So in certain circles, in my experience, they are indeed frowned upon, but Accordions, Banjos, Guitars & Bodhrans tend to be lumped together, as being the session instruments to beware of, because they can all be so easily played far too loud & often take over & have often been known to destroy a session.

Personally, I tend to treat every player of those instruments as I find them, because I know it is no fault of the instrument itself & I am a big fan of all of them, when played well.

Cheers
Ptarmi
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Nick Hudis

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2008, 11:31:31 PM »

Spiers and Bonden......... Andy Cutting and Mark Emerson .......... Waterson-Carthy ......... Tony Hall with Pete Wilks on Mr Universe ...... Walter Bulwer with Reg Hall .......

I could go on, but where I come from a good fiddler and a a good box player are a marriage made in heaven.  But the emphasis has to be on good on both sides.
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Simon Crook

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2008, 11:51:51 PM »

I'm just rediscovering my enthusiasm for the melodeon, having had a Hohner D/G Pokerwork for 27 years (played very intermittently), and awaiting a Weltmeister one-row in D - very high class!

So far, most of the discussion has focused around questions of style and the quality of 'noise' generated by massed instruments. Ptarmigan's original question hints - intentionally or not - at social and cultural factors behind any perceived bias against melodeons, as well as harmonicas and banjos. I wonder whether 'culturally purist' attitudes to the kind of instruments thought appropriate for 'traditional' music may have been operating in a subtle way. I can't pretend to have a great knowledge of the Irish music scene, but are there a lot fewer banjos around than there used to be? Is there a greater emphasis on virtuosic performance on 'authentic' instruments, the promotion of a more 'bardic' approach over and above the good-time sound of the gleeman? In which case, the uillean pipes would certainly be musical aristocracy in comparison with the banjo, with its African-American heritage. Personally, I prefer to hear the banjo in the mix, with all the connotations that make up our muddled histories.

With 'English traditional music' anti-modernist ruralism seems to be a motivating principle for patrician interpreters of home-made popular music. I read in a synopsis of an article in the EFDSS magazine that successive agricultural depressions in the nineteenth century forced people to sell whatever instruments they had - fiddles,etc. It was only the advent of relatively cheap free-reed instruments that put the means of musical production back in the hands of the poor, and allowed traditional music to be transmitted to the present, in however rough-and-ready a way. I can see how certain people (even today?) might have seen such industrially-produced instruments as in some way inferior to more 'natural' fiddles, flutes and whistles. The rural bias of the early collectors has also obscured a vibrant urban musical culture in the late nineteenth/early twentieth century, driven by squeezebox, harmonica and banjo, which I learnt of talking to my Nan in the '70s about her South London childhood.  One of her memories points to the impossibility of drawing hard and fast distinctions between rural and urban. She remembered an aunt doing something called 'the Cock and Breeches dance', where she'd wrap her skirts around her legs to make them look like trousers, kicking her legs all the while. It was only in the last year, reading on the internet about the Gloucestershire fiddler Stephen Baldwin, that I found out it was a women-only dance performed at harvest festivals to the tune, 'Cock O' The North'!
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