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Author Topic: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?  (Read 25586 times)

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TomB-R

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2008, 12:03:27 PM »

So could anyone suggest a half dozen or so tunes that it might be useful to have in hand for a English style session?  I could probably dig out of deep subconcious a few real old chestnuts of the Soldier's Joy, Winster Gallop, Four Hand Reel variety.

Nick

Nick, I've started a new thread on this in the Teaching and Learning section since it seemed a question deservingof  its own thread that hasn't obviously been discussed recently.

(Fair points all there, Ptarmigan.)
Tom
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Falseknight

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2008, 01:27:03 PM »

It is a matter of reference.  Being also a player of banjos (not to be confused with banjo player :P), I'm quite familiar with the well known axiom in the U.S.: that the BANJO PLAYER (:P) is among the lowest of feeders in the musical sea.  So, while I'm not qualified to say that players of melodeons are not 'twits, it would be hard for me to imagine a more philistine and lampooned occupation than that of the lowly banjo player :PSurely the melodeon player, and perhaps even the D/G melodeon player, is a rocket scientist next to the banjo player :P.

5 string or tenor?   ;D

There is apparently guidance for good order at sessions that you only allow one tenor player to play at once -think it was posted on here somewhere.

Tenor players in my experience are the worst offenders in the speed stakes.
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Ptarmigan

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2008, 01:42:25 PM »

Having spent 20 years playing tenor Banjo I would have to agree that two Tenor Banjo players in a session is one too many.

However, I haven't found them to be the worst offenders on the speed up stakes.
Personally, I have always found Guitar & Bodhran players to be really suspect in this dept.

As for instruments which should be restricted to only ONE in a session, I would have to add Accordions, Melodeons & Concertinas to that list.
I think the worst session I ever heard was SIX Concertinas in a pub in Miltown Malbay!

Just a nightmare!

Cheers
Ptarmi
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Randal Scott

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2008, 04:37:24 PM »

5 string or tenor?   ;D

In the U.S., four-string players are largely ragtime or Dixie-style jazz aficionados ( 8))--both tenor and plectrum.  The five-string is vastly more popular and is the instrument of choice for three-chord bluegrass-playing mouth-breathers ( :P) ::)...as depicted in the film Deliverence.

I play both... :P 8)

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Pete Dunk

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2008, 04:38:57 PM »

Anybody know where sessions take place in the Tyneside area, I am not native to these parts and only recently moved here.

If you're in Tyneside then you're pretty much cheek by jowl with Theo! He's away at the moment but I'm sure he'll give you chapter and verse when he gets back. If you get half a chance visit The Box Place in Gateshead and have a chat in person, he doesn't bite.  :)
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Martin J

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2008, 12:24:22 PM »

I'm late joining this thread due to playing in and leading sessions for the past week in Bideford.

I have a Hohner melodeon advert from before the war, it headlines in large print "No Musical Knowledge Required".  This ad was presented to me by a fiddler so it's no wonder there is some underlying belief that any monkey can play one.

It is actually easy to get a reasonable tune quite quickly out of a diatonic instrument but it takes years to play properly.  John Kirkpatrick spent a whole workshop pointing out and demonstrating how to play different rhythms on the bass whilst playing the tune straight on the right hand.  Check out the great single row players, English, Cajun, French Canadian, Organetto.  Every one I have ever met says the same thing.  It is much harder to play a single row very well.

The really great thing about good melodeon playing is of course the expression you can give to a piece and this can't be done if you start at max vol.  Light and shade requires some shade to begin with.

I can only commend an instruction to Mandolin players which says they should ask the melodeon player at the end of a piece if he enjoyed their triplets and ornamentations during the last tune. !!??

I think you are off to a racing start Ptmari in as much as you asked questions before playing.  The melodeon in any of its forms is definitely a 1st class citizen, now it's up to the individual players to present it as such.  I would suggest that readers of this forum will all be of a similar mind.  For me it's the musical yobs thrashing loud boxes in sessions who offend.

Lastly, I am in no way lumping all loud players as being bad.  Many Irish players have bought large Paolo boxes because they are loud and they can hear them in sessions.  Perhaps this is the cause of resentment in Ireland.
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mikesamwild

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2008, 09:43:59 PM »

Can you get me a T shirt made up with that on!? Or post thead if it's not copyright?
Cheers
Mike
I left my unlocked van with my melodeon in it. When I came back there were three more on the back seat etc etc I'm sure these have been all posted before
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Theo

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #47 on: August 23, 2008, 11:22:22 AM »

Anybody know where sessions take place in the Tyneside area, I am not native to these parts and only recently moved here.

If you're in Tyneside then you're pretty much cheek by jowl with Theo! He's away at the moment but I'm sure he'll give you chapter and verse when he gets back. If you get half a chance visit The Box Place in Gateshead and have a chat in person, he doesn't bite.  :)

Nick has already been here more than once.

Sessions on Tyneside:

1st and third Tuesday evening each month Cumberland Arms, Anything But Irish
Friday evenings, White Swan, Greenside
Sunday lunchtime/afternoon, Tap & Spile Morpeth

There are numerous others, these are the ones I know because I go to them.  All have nice friendly people and good music.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Nick Hudis

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2008, 12:10:31 AM »

Theo

thanks, maybe see you at the Cumberland Arms one Tuesday.

Nick
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Chris Brimley

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2008, 11:08:48 AM »

I reckon that the thing about the melodeon, and the reason that it has such a lively discussion forum as this one, is that it isn't one instrument, it is a group of dozens of different concepts of what the instrument is all about, all lumped together under the same working title.  You can go from a single row Cajun, with its drive, rhythm and punch and relatively simple melody, to a 3-row with lots of bass buttons and voices, which can give a totally different mellow and sweet sound and theoretically little limitation in musical possibilities.  And one reasonably competent player can have a go at all different sorts of effects (given a big enough budget.) Isn't the best thing about the instrument that it is still under development?  The range of boxes you can get these days is so much wider than even 30 years ago, whereas look at a violin, a flute or even a guitar, there's not so many new ideas under development, and the basic formula hasn't altered much for some time (OK, perhaps I should leave out the guitar from that).

We are all lucky people who play them, there's so much scope for a bit of imagination!

Q:  Why do so many dance bands have melodeons as the lead instrument? 
Controversial A:  Because other musos actually like the sound they make.
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TomB-R

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2008, 03:01:37 PM »

Nice reply Chris.

I'd second that, slightly backhandedly, as one who is primarily a fiddle player. Once a fiddler has one decent instrument, there's little point in looking at others, that instrument can probably do almost anything, you know YOU are the only limitation, and you miss out on all the fun of considering different instruments, systems etc etc! (Fiddle Acquisition Syndrome is very rare amongst players, in my experience.)

Why do you think I'm here !  ;D

Tom
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Stiamh

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2008, 03:11:28 PM »

Q:  Why do so many dance bands have melodeons as the lead instrument? 
Controversial A:  Because other musos actually like the sound they make.

I'd agree with this - and it's not just other musos. Dancers and punters generally love a box in a band, where it can provide tremendous drive and energy.

All the same, for me the melodeon/diatonic accordion is most definitely a second-class citizen. In the music I play, Irish trad., a box is best employed as a wonderfully effective complement and foil to a fiddle. As a solo instrument, the appeal of the drive and energy wears off after a while, and you soon miss the tremendous subleties that a fiddle (especially, but also flute and pipes) is capable of and a box just isn't. 

Chris Brimley

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2008, 05:45:04 PM »

I like your thoughtful comments, Steve.  I agree with you that many boxes are not capable of subtlety, but then for many that isn't their main purpose in a dance band.  However, I also feel that for those that, from time to time, want to play with subtlety, recent box designs do actually allow that, but we have yet to explore the possibilities this offers.  The big challenge of the box for me is what to do with the left hand. Not only does this offer rhythm and bass, but it also sets the box apart from other single line melody instruments.  Basically, a two, four or eight button layout is going to restrict you, and there are various ways of dealing with that problem:  1)  Ignore it, and just turn the LH side volume down to miss out the clashing chords (and how many pokerwork box players have been there, I wonder?).  2)  Don't play the LH side at all.  This solution is attractive to many Irish players, but its limitation is in missing out half of the instrument.  The benefits are that you can use the RH side to its full potential, and more to the point I think, learn things easily by using the same fingering on every tune.  3)  Just play simple tunes.  Hmm, yes, OK for some people, mebbe, but I want more.  4)  Have a complicated LH layout, with lots of buttons, and fit the RH side fingering to the push/pulls dictated by the left.  This is where I'm at at the moment, but the main problem is that it takes absolutely ages to learn anything, basically because if you want to play the same RH phrase with different chords, you have to play it differently on the RH depending on the LH chord. 

Some may ask, is it all worth it, when a piano accordion or a French-style chest Wurlitzer musette button accordeon gives more possibilities?  Well, I say yes it should be, because you still have the chance to put some rhythm in the band through the push/pull system.  Admittedly, you lose some punch through having a heavy LH side, but you can still do it, with a little persistence.

But I think it's the range of opportunities with the melodeon group of instruments that's important - no wonder the top players all have lots of boxes on stage for different tunes.

Chris
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Martin J

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2008, 06:00:01 PM »

I agree and disagree with Steve both at the same time.  Some of the best performers I hear are great for two numbers, OK for the third and by the fourth I'm loosing interest.  This is because there is not enough going on with just the one voice, one guitar, one whatever.  So yes I agree box is better with another instrument but I reckon that's true in reverse, so no matter how well you play the singularity will begin to pawl.  At Irish sessions after 40 minutes or so I have heard non musical folk say things like, isn't this great but do they know another tune ?  !!!   No reflection on Irish players.  I also belong to singing bands where the punters shout for a song they don't know the words of but howl out the chorus.  That's life.

So I strongly disagree with you Steve - the box isn't second class.  It drives where a fiddle can't.  It has chords which no other lead instrument has.  It has enough rhythm to do away with any sort of drum, tappety thing etc and John Kirkpatrick will tell you in no uncertain terms that the bellows and left hand are vital to good playing.  Definitely first class, it leads and others follow.

Note: Chris posted whilst I was typing but I see that he too rates the fantastic drive of box whilst giving a lead.
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Québécois

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #54 on: September 03, 2008, 06:19:04 PM »

As a solo instrument, the appeal of the drive and energy wears off after a while, and you soon miss the tremendous subleties that a fiddle (especially, but also flute and pipes) is capable of and a box just isn't. 
Depends who plays the box, and who plays the fiddle :)
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TomB-R

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2008, 07:42:55 PM »

 It drives where a fiddle can't.  

In the nicest possible way, my friend, b*****ks !
(Much as I like BOTH instruments)

If you were to say, "in a way that most fiddle players don't achieve" I wouldn't disagree with you!

Tom
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 07:48:58 PM by TomBR »
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Waltham

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #56 on: September 03, 2008, 09:33:07 PM »

Basically, a two, four or eight button layout is going to restrict you, and there are various ways of dealing with that problem:  1)  Ignore it, and just turn the LH side volume down to miss out the clashing chords (and how many pokerwork box players have been there, I wonder?). 
Well, if you've found  turn down the LH volume for selected chords without also turning down the RH volume I would imagine the world will soon be beating a path to your door...
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Waltham

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2008, 09:37:30 PM »

Once a fiddler has one decent instrument, there's little point in looking at others, that instrument can probably do almost anything, you know YOU are the only limitation, and you miss out on all the fun of considering different instruments, systems etc etc! (Fiddle Acquisition Syndrome is very rare amongst players, in my experience.)
"Friends may come and friends may go,
But the fiddle bill goes on forever"

But once you've got a solid-body for electric gigs, and one to keep gut-strung, and a medieval fidel and a rebec and a nyckelharpa the urge is supressed a little.  Of course there's always bows.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #58 on: September 03, 2008, 10:21:41 PM »

Regarding Waltham's comment on different volumes for LH and RH, I think many players in dance bands tend to use two mikes, one for LH and one for RH.  It's then a simple matter to lower the LH volume if you want, particularly if you use mikes with a highly directional 'slender cone' response (like Samson Q1's, which I find to be superb) directly pointing away from the foldback system, to cut down on feedback.  In fact, I've noticed some players play without any mike at all for the LHS.
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Falseknight

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Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #59 on: September 03, 2008, 11:34:50 PM »

Single line instrument?

I'vealways played right hand chords and counters as well - but then, I was a guitarist first.
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