Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5   Go Down

Author Topic: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?  (Read 25585 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

butterfingers

  • Good talker
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 66
Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #60 on: September 04, 2008, 03:10:09 AM »

Hmm..those enamoured of single row look to the second last and last  post at "10 treble buttons/4 bass buttons"...one can make things interesting with a limited left hand [3 chords only but opportunities to mix the bass w/unlikely harmonic combinations]..and a selective or inventive right hand...
Logged

Mutt

  • Melodiate
  • Good talker
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 98
  • D/G Saltarelle Infeno, D/G Club IIb, A/D Pokerwork
Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #61 on: September 04, 2008, 04:40:10 AM »

Given that the original questioner is looking from his perspective in Ireland and enquiring about the way things might be in England, and given that I'm an American living in one of America's more remote corners, I wouldn't presume to comment on whether the melodeon is 1st or 2nd class in an English session.

However, the tenor of the postings seems to have drifted toward the question of whether the melodeon is *innately* 2nd class or not, and on that I can have an opinion, too, can't I?

In that context, I'd like to say that I certainly HOPE the melodeon is considered second class, and I hope it always will be.  That was part of its initial appeal to me.

My early musical training was at the hands of a number of well-meaning but narrowly focused musical puritans, for whom the European aristocratic musical tradition was the gold standard by which all other forms of music were judged.  It never occurred to them (or me for a long time) that the rural, peasant musical tradition antedated the aristocratic, and that it had just as much "validity."  To them the violin was sacrosanct while the fiddle was an abomination, the piano was divine while the dulcimer was cacophonous, and folk tunes, when they found their way into performance at all, needed to be "repaired" from their rustic, barbarous modes to be fit for proper company.

So, when I finally came to the place where I decided all I was taught wasn't necessarily so, I tended to look for an instrument to fit the music, something with mud on it's boots and dirt under it's fingernails.  One of those instruments, for me, is the melodeon.  And I hope it never does become proper, respectable, or first class.
Logged
George Knight
Anchorage, Alaska
Yes, brrrrrrr!

Chris Brimley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2018
Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #62 on: September 04, 2008, 09:49:22 AM »

I think there's an interesting comparison here with Breton music, where the box is also a popular instrument.  If I've got the terms right, in the traditional 'Bagad', there are two instruments playing alternately, the bombarde (a short and simple oboe sounding like a noisily strangled duck), and the biniou-koz bagpipes (more like a noisily strangled goose).  They play alternate phrases mainly because nobody has enough puff to play either of them all the time, as far as I can see.  They are extremely noisy single line melody instruments with a drone, and the rhythmic drive for the dance comes strongly from the dynamics of these two instruments.  In this tradition, it seems as if the function of the 'accord�on diatonique' in a dance band has been developed to provide subtle bass and harmonic variation, as well as soft and mellow melodies.  Some of the harmonies are strikingly different from what English or Irish payers would expect, and everything sounds unmistakeably French.  The 'diato' is also popular as a solo instrument, or to accompany songs, but it almost always seems to be much more laid back in style than the English concept of using its capabilities.

Of course the other thing about the Breton tradition is that it is respected by most Bretons, who have a healthy regard for their cultural identity, rather than being derided as usually happens in England!  What's it like in Ireland?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 08:21:50 AM by Theo »
Logged

Stiamh

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3537
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #63 on: September 04, 2008, 03:01:26 PM »

Chris, I think the bombarde and biniou players are simply referred to as "sonneurs". A bagad is more recent phenomenon - a wild, weird and wonderful combination of breton trad instruments and Scottish pipe band elements. See here: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagad 

A bit of a rite of passage for young Breton males -as one friend explained to me the typical teenager will go through rugby for sport and bagad for music. Same levels of energy and thrust required in both, judging from this clip (set the volume as loud as possible for the full effect): http://www.rogermillington.com/steam/bagad.mp3  (6MB)

Interestingly I posted a thread a while ago moaning about the dullness of Breton box playing in comparison with biniou and bombarde, but I deleted the specific references when it was pointed out to me that a thread on "most boring box recordings" could easily offend. So to my mind, comparing diato with sonneurs or bagads merely emphasises the fact that the diato is a poor relation. Sorry Chris!

As for attitudes to trad. music in Ireland: despite the amazing revival that has happened since the 1970s, the thousands of highly skilled young players around today, and Riverdance and all that hoopla, country and western and related schmaltz is vastly more popular among the general public. It's still diddly-di music and probably always will be. Actually, parallelling what Mutt said, I'm very happy for it to remain so. If it ever went really mainstream it would lose a bit of shine for me and many others I suspect.

Chris Brimley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2018
Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #64 on: September 04, 2008, 04:47:59 PM »

Yes, (and going briefly a little off the thread), I remember going in the early eighties to a Bagad competition, I think in Lorient, and going into an absolutely massive gymnasium, to be confronted by about 500 teenage pipe players and their doting families in traditional costume, battling it out seriously for supremacy, in an atmosphere of considerable excitement and indescribable levels of decibels!

I think you're being a little harsh on the place of the diato in Breton music, though.  Most of the Fest Nozzes I've been to (and they seem to be very well attended by Bretons themselves), if they have a band, will often have a nicely played mellow box leading the sound, with the locals all knowing what to do on the dance floor.  The bombarde and bagpipe combo tends to play more for the traditional display dance team, rather like a morris spot at an English dance I guess.

And remember that many of these festivals are professionally produced and funded by Local Authorities for cultural and tourist promotion reasons, with serious resources.  Wake up, English Local Authorities, where are you?

Boxes apparently became very popular in Brittany at the beginning of the 20th C, for weddings and such, and they even coined the name 'Bouezous' for their players.  I guess that the noisier traditional wind instruments would have been a little too strident for many of the guests to enjoy, but the diato clearly held a considerable place in popular culture at that time.

So I'm not sure the diato should go into Box 101 just yet!
Logged

Montana Melodeon

  • Guest
Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #65 on: September 04, 2008, 08:24:43 PM »

I find the melodeon is a first class citizen.  Perhaps second class in terms of popularity but so many bands, tunes and songs have been enhanced by the melodeon or the button accordion.  I think that once you've heard the presence that the box provides you want to hear the presence more.  I was attracted to the box via John Kirkpatricks work with Martin Carthy and with the Morris On album.  Later I heard many tunes by De Dannan and their various box players.  When I hear the same tunes without the box I think something is missing.  In the same way the Irish bouzouki or cittern have a sonic presence (a place in the musical wall of sound between the guitar and mandolin) the melodeon fits with so many folk bands.  I could not imagine Keith Hancock covering Leonard Cohen's "Everyboby Knows" without the box.  So many Oysterband songs have a rhythm only possible with the box.  I find my favorite Great Big Sea tunes are the ones with the box.  Little Johnny England has many songs that could be "pop" and they benefit from the box.  Chumbawamba has pieces that are brilliant due to the sonic addition of a well played melodeon.  Even the piano box has possibilities once removed from the dreaded um pa pigeon hole. I suppose a common factor with the above listed bands and all your favorites is that the box is well played.  And yes overly loud playing can kill a session but people have to learn to communicate with their overly zestful box players so that everyone can have fun at the session.  For those who don't like the box no matter who is playing I feel for your limited options in life.  rant over.  thank you all.  Eric in Montana (the only melodeon in 100 miles)
Logged

Simon Crook

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10
Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #66 on: September 04, 2008, 09:48:21 PM »

It's the very 'second-class associations' evoked by Mutt that I find most appealing about the melodeon these days (initially drawn as I was to it by Morris/country-dance traditionalism). It's 'easiness to play' (ok, and a bit rough and ready as a long-standing beginner) subverting the aristocratic approach to musicianship - a kind of Stefan Grappelli to the Yehudi Menuhin of classicism... I'm now plodding my way around The 'Heaven's Gate Waltz' which I found on You Tube today (put 'Heaven's Gate rollerskating dance' as a search, otherwise you'll get the suicide comet cult) - it's the loveliest bit from a sadly under-rated film about second-class citizens in the USA - cajun accordian played by Gerry McGee, son of the legendary cajun fiddler, Dennis McGee.
Logged

Martin J

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 902
  • Poole, Dorset
Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #67 on: September 06, 2008, 10:31:36 AM »

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, Mutt how could you.  :o  Innately 2nd class. Never.  Don't let the musical snobs claim the musical high ground.  Popularity and mainstream have never been a measure of class.

Mantana Melodeon mentions De Dannan.  Just listen to Martin O Conner playing Paganini (sorry I don't have a Youtube clip) and then listen to the driving rhythms of English dance bands led by melodeons, what a range, what diversity, from classical to dance.  Mind you I wouldn't want to see a melodeon as the solo lead in an orchestral piece, I feel quite queasy at the mere thought of it.  Remember what that lot, and the radio, did to folk songs until the late 50's

I think every one on this thread agrees that it is the player more than the instrument that sets the level.  I'm sure even my touchy friend Tom will agree that the screeches and squeaks of the novice fiddle player bear no resemblance to the final outcome.  And that's the rub.  Any note on a melodeon sounds good on it's own which leads to some very inferior performances of a collection of notes, misleadingly called a tune, by the novice exponent.

So I remain a staunch supporter of Melodeons being a 1st class instrument.  Players are an entirely different subject.
Logged
Castagnari, Weltmeister, Giustozzi, Streb, too many Hohners.  No Strings Attached ceilidh band

Fergus_fiddler

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7
Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #68 on: September 07, 2008, 12:50:57 PM »

Just listen to Martin O Conner playing Paganini (sorry I don't have a Youtube clip) and then listen to the driving rhythms of English dance bands led by melodeons, what a range, what diversity, from classical to dance.

Mairtin O'Connor is miles away from the best irish box players, he is unique in his own kind. The Paganini tune he plays is "Motto Perpetuo", included in the album "Perpetual Motion". This album is a must for any melodeon player; indeed he plays anything in it but irish music: blues, cajun, basque music, eastern european... breaking in this way the cliche about irish music box player.

2nd class citizen? I don't think so. I only can think about 1st and 2nd class musicians - & i'm even behind the 2nd class ones -.

Cheers
Logged

Stiamh

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3537
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #69 on: September 07, 2008, 07:46:12 PM »

Well I don't think the box can hold a candle to the fiddle as a folk instrument, but if we are going to bring Paganini into it, the mind really starts to boggle. Yes, Mairtin O Connor is an incredible box player, but have you heard anything by Paganini played by a virtuoso violinist? If you haven't, you should try, and if you have, and you still think the instruments are in any way in the same league... there's not much point in our continuing the discussion.

None of this stops us all enjoying both instruments for what they are, and the marvellous music that is made on each for what it is.

Cheers
Steve

Martin J

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 902
  • Poole, Dorset
Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #70 on: September 07, 2008, 08:35:03 PM »

Oops, it seems to have turned in to a competition.  The thread title makes no mention of fiddles, violins or any other stringed instrument but for the record Steve, I too enjoy playing with fiddles; and brass and reeds.  Earlier I remarked on the complimentary nature of different instruments and the variety it gives to the listeners.  I also drew a comparison between classical and folk performances.  The unitended slur seems to stem from my praising melodeons for having a bass side with which to drive the melody.  Chalk & Cheese spring to mind between fiddles and melodeons but the merits of one, no mater how good, cannot detract from the other.
none of this stops us all enjoying both instruments for what they are, and the marvellous music that is made on each for what it is.

So we agree - Beauty is in the ear of the listener.

Shame you live so far away, I would love to play in a session with you.

Martin
Logged
Castagnari, Weltmeister, Giustozzi, Streb, too many Hohners.  No Strings Attached ceilidh band

Stiamh

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3537
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #71 on: September 08, 2008, 11:39:08 AM »

Sorry for any hints of competition, Martin. I do feel that folkies are living in a dreamworld sometimes. Might be down to my hearing too many of those in my own little purview denigrating classical music and classical musicians without seeming to know FA about them.

A session would be nice indeed. I like to think I'm not half such a boor in person as I am online.  :D

Pushpull

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 185
Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #72 on: September 08, 2008, 12:27:39 PM »

Sorry for any hints of competition, Martin. I do feel that folkies are living in a dreamworld sometimes. Might be down to my hearing too many of those in my own little purview denigrating classical music and classical musicians without seeming to know FA about them.
This thread sprang back to mind when listening to Radio 3 this morning. The presenter, Rob Cowan (for it was he), referred to the cornett as (paraphrasing a bit here) "not normally known as a virtuosic instrument". Now I thought it was musicians who were virtuosic or otherwise, not their instruments. So, I can't see anything 1st, 2nd or any other class about the melodeon or any other instrument. I do,  however, confess to myself being firmly in the "untermensch" category as a player.

Roy.
Logged

finnhorse

  • Guest
Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #73 on: September 08, 2008, 02:10:32 PM »

Quote
The presenter, Rob Cowan (for it was he), referred to the cornett as (paraphrasing a bit here) "not normally known as a virtuosic instrument". Now I thought it was musicians who were virtuosic or otherwise, not their instruments.

Well put.  But where was Cowan going with that statement?  The instrument has seen a bit of a resurgence in recent years, along with its 50 or so Baroque cousins.. there are some very nice recordings available now.

The following is being taken totally out of context, but for the sake of argument I'd like him to tell Bach that the cornett isn't the instrument of a virtuoso.  Same to Praetorius, or Pachelbel along with a host of others who wrote for cornett.  Those people being long dead, Cowan may kindly inform the Pope instead, who I understand enjoys the performance of the cornett in lieu of the castrato.   

I've got ten sackbuts that say that it's easier to obtain the cornettist's tricky embrochure than a genuine castrato!  :o 

My two cents: to consider the melodeon as a second-class citizen in traditional music is like looking at one half of a Venn diagram.  The two instruments have capabilities which intersect in some contexts, and exceed one another in others.  Where they do not overlap is self-evident, and nullifies the argument.  Fiddles, pipes, and accordions have totally different personalities.   

It's like apples and oranges.  Or maybe it's more the Beatles and the Stones.  And let's face it, the argument should be put to rest because the Stones are just THAT much better.  ;D 



Logged

Pushpull

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 185
Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #74 on: September 08, 2008, 02:46:55 PM »

Well put.  But where was Cowan going with that statement?
Search me. Unfortunately Radio 3 "Breakfast" (a title which makes me want to throw up my cornflakes in an apoplectic rage) seems to be sounding more and more like Classic FM, with inane comments to match.
Quote
It's like apples and oranges.  Or maybe it's more the Beatles and the Stones.  And let's face it, the argument should be put to rest because the Stones are just THAT much better.  ;D 
Oh dear and I thought we were getting on so well.  ;)
Logged

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13704
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #75 on: September 08, 2008, 03:19:51 PM »

Fiddles, ... and accordions have totally different personalities.   

Nicely expressed, and in the right hands the two complement each other wonderfully, thinking: Wood & Cutting, Spiers & Boden, (any other nominations?)
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Stiamh

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3537
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #76 on: September 08, 2008, 03:51:00 PM »

... in the right hands the two complement each other wonderfully, thinking: Wood & Cutting, Spiers & Boden, (any other nominations?)

What I said:  ;)

in Irish trad., a box is best employed as a wonderfully effective complement and foil to a fiddle.

Matthew B

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 872
Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #77 on: September 08, 2008, 04:14:36 PM »

any other nominations? 

Silvio Peron & Gabriele Ferrero
Logged
Charter Member Presumpscot and Fore River Accordion Club

Fergus_fiddler

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7
Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #78 on: September 08, 2008, 11:38:13 PM »


There must be some great pairing in Scottish music too?

The late Johnny Cunningham and his brother Phil - although he plays piano accordion -.

I've been playing fiddle for 15 years and now I'm learning concertina & button accordion. I'm looking for in the free reed instruments different qualities of sound & new ways of playing the ol' tunes I know well. Obviously, I try not to make comparisons, but an instrument that is always in tune is a big relief...

Cheers
Logged

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13704
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: The Melodeon & 1st or 2nd class citizen?
« Reply #79 on: September 09, 2008, 09:57:32 AM »

I've been playing fiddle for 15 years and now I'm learning concertina & button accordion. I'm looking for in the free reed instruments different qualities of sound & new ways of playing the ol' tunes I know well. Obviously, I try not to make comparisons, but an instrument that is always in tune is a big relief...

Cheers

Fancy that, I'm doing the opposite, but for the same sort of reasons.  Started playing melodeon in 1995.  There are so many fantastic fiddle players here in NE England that I was inspired to start fiddling too.  The fiddle just seems to present you with the distant prospect of so much musical possibility, but sometimes it seems as hard to reach as the crock of gold at the end of the rainbow.  It's fun though, gradually overcoming what at first seemed like impossible technical challenges.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal