Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6   Go Down

Author Topic: how much "making" constitutes "making"  (Read 18843 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Andy in Vermont

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 948
  • Mélodie
    • Melodeon Minutes (blog)
how much "making" constitutes "making"
« on: August 21, 2011, 09:36:39 PM »

From another thread:

I don't have any hang ups about makers sourcing mechanical parts or reeds from expert manufacturers and as for bellows and straps ...  ::). Choosing the right parts and creating an top quality instrument from them can hardly be described as 'assembly'

No, but having an entire instrument chassis, reedblock, and keyboard made somewhere else, then installing reeds is certainly assembly -- albeit skilled assembly since reedwork is not simply fungible labor!

If Gaillard's reedwork person started to say that she "made" or "built" Gaillard accordions, wouldn't that be ridiculous? For that matter, it wouldn't even be appropriate for her to say that she "assembled" Gaillards.

Again, this description isn't about Loffet but about the meaning of manufacturing; producing; and assembling.  Based on the above-cited text, as well as other remarks in another thread, I think there are some gaps in people's knowledge of where accordions come from and what the norms of production are, and how that plays out in representations of "making" accordions.

There is a French website that attempted to get to the bottom of which parts were outsourced/generic and which were made in-house by each "maker" --- it's interesting to see how the makers' self-description could influence the 'picture' of where the boxes were made.  For instance, one maker's description referred to the "artisanal production" of his melodeons, when the pictures showed badged Serenellinis -- in fact, the same models one could get by simply picking up a phone and calling Serenellini.

Also, the word "design" is thrown about rather liberally, and in general seems to refer to what I would call "specifying," as in specifying wood varieties, keyboard configurations, how many voices, how many bass and treble buttons, what kind of decor.

For single-maker shops -- shops where an individual is associated with building the melodeon -- the norm is to make the chassis, reedblocks, and keyboard in-house.  Most single-builder shops buy bellows, straps, buttons, treble and bass mechanical parts from suppliers; and reeds are sourced from a small number of Italian reedmakers or suppliers. This could be called "producing" or "making."

Any less than that amount of in-house work -- i.e. having the reedblocks, chassis, and/or keyboard made by a company that makes its own boxes, in its own design, shifts the maker's work more toward "assembly."  Some exceptions would be special contracts with workshops or machinists to make parts that are uniquely designed for the maker.

Any more than that standard amount of in-house work can be regarded as a bonus.  Several of the builders in Quebec, for instance, make their own bellows (again, from components that are purchased from Italian suppliers).

Certainly, if a single-maker shop managed to make its own reeds, that would be an exceptional amount of in-house work and I suspect that maker would be able to command prices that are much higher than the norm -- see the single-maker concertina shops.

Steve C.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1901
  • Erica, Laura, Morse Anglo
Re: how much "making" constitutes "making"
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2011, 01:19:24 AM »

Andy, I feel the pain everyday in my day job, regulating medical devices.

In medical, it's called "own brand labeling" (OBL) and is the legal definition of the "company placing the product on the market under their own name"; they become the manufacture, regardless of who actually designed, built and packaged the product.

I have inspected factories that the OBL'er had never even been to.

There is a lot of this in musical instruments as well, not to mention toasters, flat screens, mobile phones, lap tops, etc. etc.

Not going to be easy to reverse the trend, as the "manufacturer/namer" paid their money and feels justified in marketing the box as theirs.  And legally justified they are.

But I know what you mean.  Maybe let's you and me take a trip to Castelfidardo and buy 100 boxes; in the meantime, let's think up a good name and "look".  (no rhinestones, please)

We ship them to Vt. and you "work magic" on them to set them apart from the run of the mill other companies that are doing the same thing.  My thought is we add either a siren or birdcall button, like some of the old concertinas had.  ::)
Logged
Located in Central North Carolina, USA; credit for picture: livingplanet.ca

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10171
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: how much "making" constitutes "making"
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2011, 05:15:36 AM »

The World has changed, albeit Colin Dipper makes own bellows, reeds and even threads his own bolts! But Colin has a 15+ year wait (if it ever comes) and would not I think describe himself as a businessman.

Doubters should perhaps read Adam smith, or play one of the re-reeded Italian boxes Oakwood do. We all rave about those! In the end its build quality, sound and price/value that matter to me.

Ooo! I'm just watching an Alpine sunrise!  (:) (:)
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

Howard Jones

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1117
Re: how much "making" constitutes "making"
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2011, 08:43:50 AM »

Colin (Dipper)has a 15+ year wait (if it ever comes) and would not I think describe himself as a businessman.

I think that's something of an exagerration.  When I asked Colin about this (admittedly three or four years ago) he told me the wait then was around 4 years, unless you wanted something unusual.  He claimed the stories about long waiting periods were put about by concertina dealers who want to encourage people to buy second-hand.  It's true that your concertina will only be ready when it's ready, and the waiting period is only a guideline, but I don't think it's as long as as often suggested, and certainly not 15+ years (unless anyone has evidence to the contrary).

As the owner of a Dipper, I can only say it's worth waiting for.  However I've already annoyed enough people on concertina.net by revealing how long I waited for mine, so I won't repeat it here.  Suffice to say I was very lucky with the timing of my enquiry.

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10171
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: how much "making" constitutes "making"
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2011, 12:29:53 PM »

Saw Colin and Rosalie last month in France and mine is no closer. Ok Id asked for a franglo.  To be fair I got the long wait off a board, but speaking personally, 8 years+ now.

My point however was - they seem to buy NOTHING in.
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

Steve C.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1901
  • Erica, Laura, Morse Anglo
Re: how much "making" constitutes "making"
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2011, 01:26:05 PM »

Chris, I agree, real craftsmanship is a beautiful thing when you can find it.
Logged
Located in Central North Carolina, USA; credit for picture: livingplanet.ca

Andy in Vermont

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 948
  • Mélodie
    • Melodeon Minutes (blog)
Re: how much "making" constitutes "making"
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2011, 02:48:31 PM »

The World has changed, albeit Colin Dipper makes own bellows, reeds and even threads his own bolts! But Colin has a 15+ year wait (if it ever comes) and would not I think describe himself as a businessman.

Doubters should perhaps read Adam smith, or play one of the re-reeded Italian boxes Oakwood do. We all rave about those! In the end its build quality, sound and price/value that matter to me.

Ooo! I'm just watching an Alpine sunrise!  (:) (:)

I'm not sure what you mean by "doubters should perhaps read Adam Smith," it is precisely because I HAVE read Smith that I assert my judgment on this matter.  If you want a fungible instrument than Adam Smith is the way to go, no doubt.

The success of many of these products -- such as the Oakwood/Baffetti, relates to the price-to-quality ratio.  Not everyone has the resources to buy a Gaillard! (And not everyone wants to play one out in the rain or in a pub.)  My point is to preserve the distinction.

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10171
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: how much "making" constitutes "making"
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2011, 05:04:04 PM »

Gaillard defo makes all the woodwork (started as a cabinet maker) and the blocks which are very important. So +2 at least there. But he outsources reed fit and fettle, and when I xrayed mine, there is a load of metal in there. Maybe he makes that maybe not. I think all play to their strengths apart from Colin, man of all trades it seems.

Sort of begs the question whether Stradivarius quality woodwork ( 8) it all vibrates!) suffices if the reeds wobble or warble? I'll not take it in the rain, just heard thunder  ::)

BG's #2 daughter C is here, I'll ask about the "innards".

Ee, I only logged in for't' cricket score!
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

Steve C.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1901
  • Erica, Laura, Morse Anglo
Re: how much "making" constitutes "making"
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2011, 05:28:57 PM »

Good example of fighting the good fight are the Button Box R. Morse-series concertinas.

They are pretty much hand made in Mass. by their craftspeople.  They buy the reeds of course.  But from what I saw when I was there, they do it all.

I think they do sub out CNC routing of the reedpan.

Pretty much "a mano" for $US 2200.
Logged
Located in Central North Carolina, USA; credit for picture: livingplanet.ca

sandwich

  • Good talker
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 69
Re: how much "making" constitutes "making"
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2011, 06:16:44 PM »

Gaillard defo makes all the woodwork (started as a cabinet maker) and the blocks which are very important.
As in he and he alone does the woodwork?

Most accordion factories will engage a carpenter, so what's the difference if different parts are made by different people. If anything, the maker who does everything himself claims to be an expert in every field which seem unlikely.

Rather than paying a premium and waiting 5 years for a hobbyist to produce your accordion, would you not be better off just paying half the price (for a similar quality box) to a maker who has the good sense to hire expert staff?

Would it not be fair to say that the more you pay - in general - the better the box will be? Of course, with certain makes there is a premium for the brand, but an expensive box will be manufactured using the highest expertise available.
Logged

Stiamh

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3538
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Re: how much "making" constitutes "making"
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2011, 06:19:37 PM »

Gaillard defo makes all the woodwork (started as a cabinet maker) and the blocks which are very important. So +2 at least there. But he outsources reed fit and fettle, and when I xrayed mine, there is a load of metal in there. Maybe he makes that maybe not.

He told me the levers and mechanisms were made for him (laser-cut) in Italy, to his own design. The grilles are made by a shop, somewhere in France IIRC. I think he buys in the leather valves, too, and rejects a fair percentage of them as substandard, because he showed me a box of them and pointed out which ones were no good in his estimation.

PS @ Sandwich, cross-posted: yes he does all the woodwork himself. If you had looked at one of his boxes I don't think the term hobbyist would come to mind.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 06:21:14 PM by Steve Jones »
Logged

LDbosca

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 674
Re: how much "making" constitutes "making"
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2011, 07:28:21 PM »

Gaillard defo makes all the woodwork (started as a cabinet maker) and the blocks which are very important.
Rather than paying a premium and waiting 5 years for a hobbyist to produce your accordion

You've never played a Gaillard, have you?

sandwich

  • Good talker
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 69
Re: how much "making" constitutes "making"
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2011, 07:33:13 PM »


PS @ Sandwich, cross-posted: yes he does all the woodwork himself. If you had looked at one of his boxes I don't think the term hobbyist would come to mind.

I'm sure they are top quality boxes. Leaving aside the use of the term hobbyist... if he employed a few more people, he could sell them at a reasonable price and reduce the leadtime to zero. If he's in charge of quality control then what's the difference? It's not like Rembrandt painted every stroke himself.
Logged

sandwich

  • Good talker
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 69
Re: how much "making" constitutes "making"
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2011, 07:38:05 PM »

You've never played a Gaillard, have you?
No I haven't. Now, maybe I'll change my opinion when I play one but as far as I am concerned you'd want to have your head examined to pay the sort of cash he charges.

A great resource for this website would be a list of single-builder shops.
Logged

Owen Woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3894
  • melodeonmusic.com
    • The website and blog of Owen Woods
Re: how much "making" constitutes "making"
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2011, 07:50:30 PM »

You've never played a Gaillard, have you?
No I haven't. Now, maybe I'll change my opinion when I play one but as far as I am concerned you'd want to have your head examined to pay the sort of cash he charges.

A great resource for this website would be a list of single-builder shops.


To be fair, as far as I'm concerned you'd want to have your head examined if you buy any new box.
Logged
Bergflodt D/G 4 voice, Saltarelle Bouebe D/G, Super Preciosa D/Em, Hohner Impiliput B/C+C#

Latest blog post: In Any Weather

http://melodeonmusic.com/blog

LDbosca

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 674
Re: how much "making" constitutes "making"
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2011, 07:54:10 PM »

You've never played a Gaillard, have you?
No I haven't. Now, maybe I'll change my opinion when I play one but as far as I am concerned you'd want to have your head examined to pay the sort of cash he charges.


I imagine any opinion you might have should be based on not just the prices but some consideration of the quality for the price. They're concert-quality instruments for serious players and, yes, they come at a price, but compared with the jump in quality from slightly lower priced instruments they are very much worth it.

Another way to look at it is (in my experience, having tried Peter Hyde's instruments, Castagnaris, Saltarelles, Van Der Aas, Hohners, old and new paolos, etc., the only other option at a competing standard is a Doug Briggs box...and that's about 5000 euro and a 7 or so year wait.


PS @ Sandwich, cross-posted: yes he does all the woodwork himself. If you had looked at one of his boxes I don't think the term hobbyist would come to mind.

I'm sure they are top quality boxes. Leaving aside the use of the term hobbyist... if he employed a few more people, he could sell them at a reasonable price and reduce the leadtime to zero. If he's in charge of quality control then what's the difference? It's not like Rembrandt painted every stroke himself.


In the words of BG himself "I could make more boxes...but I don't." I think he enjoys slow, perfectionist work, rather than maximum profit-making.

sandwich

  • Good talker
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 69
Re: how much "making" constitutes "making"
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2011, 08:09:20 PM »

In the words of BG himself "I could make more boxes...but I don't." I think he enjoys slow, perfectionist work, rather than maximum profit-making.
Nicely put. Fair play to him I suppose. He can hardly be blamed for the high demand.
Logged

sandwich

  • Good talker
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 69
Re: how much "making" constitutes "making"
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2011, 08:11:42 PM »



To be fair, as far as I'm concerned you'd want to have your head examined if you buy any new box.
Why do you say that, can you elaborate on this a bit?
Logged

rees

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4734
  • Windjammer
    • Wesson Accordions
Re: how much "making" constitutes "making"
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2011, 08:16:29 PM »

In the words of BG himself "I could make more boxes...but I don't." I think he enjoys slow, perfectionist work, rather than maximum profit-making.

That's how I work too. There are far more important things to be doing. Playing the melodeon for a start.
Logged
Rees Wesson (accordion builder and mechanic)
Gungrog, Welshpool, Wales, UK
www.melodeons.com

Stiamh

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3538
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Re: how much "making" constitutes "making"
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2011, 08:43:46 PM »

In the words of BG himself "I could make more boxes...but I don't." I think he enjoys slow, perfectionist work, rather than maximum profit-making.

More words of BG: "If I wanted to make money, I would sell accordions, not make them."
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal