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[Lars]

Lars,

Well that's the conclusion that I've come to, which seems to make sense considering that the engraving/rhinestone inlay was done by this guy Augusto in New York, not by the factory in Italy. Maybe he was no longer working by the time yours was made, or maybe tastes had changed and such "shamrockery" was no longer seen as desirable?

That could be the case. It also appears much different in construction than my 6v (and most other baldonis), so perhaps the last batch was made by a different italian company. I've been told that it's from mid 60's.

But I do prefer the fancy-schmancy-rhinestone flags

[hibbs3]

Stephen, will your 2 voice Paolo you just received be converted to C#/D as well? 

[triskel]

... maybe tastes had changed and such "shamrockery" was no longer seen as desirable?

... I do prefer the fancy-schmancy-rhinestone flags

I love them myself, on a Baldoni or the like (and I saw a gorgeous Iorio like that, the other day, at Charlie's), but then there's something a bit brash, almost kitsch, about both the look and the sound of a Baldoni anyway...  

But I'd hate that look on a grey Paolo Soprani, they're much classier!

[triskel]

Stephen, will your 2 voice Paolo you just received be converted to C#/D as well? 

'Fraid so Ryan, it's a much better system for Irish-style playing. But that won't harm the reeds and it could be very easily converted back again, at some future date. 

Anyway, I don't suppose I'll see it for another year or two now... 

[triskel]

Just finished talking with Doug from the button box, and we've been trying to determine the tuning to put on this grey he has (LMMM). Any idea what the relative tuning was on boxes like this? Lars and I had conversed about it before and said something like 15 cents, but I want to be sure before I tell him to go ahead. I'm looking for the classic Grey Paolo sound, nice, wet and loud!

I was talking to both Charlie and Anders about this, and basically they both agreed entirely with what I said about that model, though Anders even suggested possibly going (an extreme) 30 cents on the tremolo!!! 

They wouldn't go so far with one of the older dark-grey, aluminium-grilled boxes, which already have an inbuilt "edgy" sound to them (Charlie has his set at 15 cents), but feel the light-greys (which yours essentially is) need more "cut", whilst the old Italian factory "Irish" tuning was around 25 cents.

So you'd want to go at least 15 cents to get anything out of it, and maybe 25... But how was it tuned originally?

[hibbs3]

Thats the thing, Doug hasn't been able to find out yet. When he emailed me first, he had all the reeds taken out for cleaning and re-valving. But he said when he gets it all together, he'll check the current tuning. I would have never thought that the light greys were 25-30 cents! But these guys know what they're talking about thanks so much for the help :)

[triskel]

Danny Mahoney just got himself an old Baldoni D/C#, and even though he's famous for his B/C, there may still be a chance he'll give it a go for real.

Actually, it's not a Baldoni, it's an Iorio - it's the one I mentioned seeing (and hearing) at Charlie's.

[hibbs3]

Iorio? Never heard of it....were they another maker of D/C# boxes for the NY & Boston area?

[triskel]

... he said when he gets it all together, he'll check the current tuning.

If it was me, I'd want to hear it before deciding how far to go with the tuning, not all boxes are the same, nor all players'/tuners' ears. In fact I've told Charlie that I'd like to hear mine before he tunes it (it's completely unplayable at the moment, with internal woodwork coming apart and a bellows full of holes  ), though I want some "poke" off its two reeds and we're thinking around 20 cents...

I would have never thought that the light greys were 25-30 cents! But these guys know what they're talking about

And I don't? 

In fact plus and minus 25 (or 26) would still be regarded as "Irish tuning" by Italian manufacturers, though these days they might more usually be asked for "swing" (5 cents), "Americano" (10 cents) or "secco" (dry) tuning for today's more "polite" Irish players. Here's a March 1997 tuning chart from Victoria Accordions in Castelfidardo:

Tuning#	Name	Cents Apart
1	Dry	0
2	Giusto	- + 5
3	American	- + 10
4	Celeste	- + 12
5	Japan	- 11, + 13
6	German	- + 14
7	Italian	- + 16
8	French	- + 20
9	Scottish	- + 23.5
10	Irish	- + 26

But Anders' 30 cents suggestion would definitely be extreme!

[triskel]

Iorio? Never heard of it....were they another maker of D/C# boxes for the NY & Boston area?

Iorio was a New York accordion factory. They are believed to have made for both Baldoni and Walters, though both my Baldonis were "Made in Italy".

[hibbs3]

I think 30 cents as well may be extreme but 25 certainly sounds do-able. The only bad thing about this is the box is located in Massachusetts and I'm stranded on the island of Newfoundland I won't get to play the box at all until it arrives here, so I'm shooting in the dark here. Thats why I'm asking for your skilled help

[Lars]

Stephen, I just thought it was Baldoni - though you must agree that it's rather un-usual for a Baldoni. But it really really looks nice!

Ryan - when I first got my 3v Paolo, I measured the reeds to between 26 and 28 cents across the range. When you're playing rather fast, it sounded really really nice! But: I think 20 is my limit.... I just find that the very wet tuning somehow sounds muffled when played along with a low (basoon) reed.

When I bought my 4v paolo from The Button Box, they said it would be overhauled and tuned to "swing" but came out almost all dry. But I don't think it should be a problem if you define number of cents to them.

[hibbs3]

Yeah, that's my plan to tell them the exact cents I want. I think I would be happy with anything from 20-25, if I could find a suitable recording to compare to in the meantime to be sure of the sound. I want a nice wet sound, but want to stay away from the muffled sound you're talking about, Lars.

[triskel]

Stephen, do both your D/C# Paolos have wooden soundboards?

No, the 4-voice (which is maybe 1947) is plywood, the 2-voice (more like 1950ish) is aluminium.

Charlie Harris also showed me a grey 2-voice one that he has, with the aluminium grille. That one has a plywood soundboard, and the aluminium Paolo Soprani name is set-in on the bass end, whilst O'Byrne DeWitt is only glued on the surface of the treble end in white plastic letters that have mostly broken off.

[hibbs3]

Hmm, that's weird, isn't it? Maybe a mix up at the factory? or maybe one of the first ones to be sent over?

[triskel]

Hmm, that's weird, isn't it? Maybe a mix up at the factory? or maybe one of the first ones to be sent over?

I'm thinking more that it shows not all of them had the O'Byrne DeWitt name inlaid at the factory, and maybe it was sometimes stuck on later - or maybe not, as the case may be, like my black one...

[hibbs3]

Hmm, that's weird, isn't it? Maybe a mix up at the factory? or maybe one of the first ones to be sent over?

I'm thinking more that it shows not all of them had the O'Byrne DeWitt name inlaid at the factory, and maybe it was sometimes stuck on later - or maybe not, as the case may be, like my black one...

So your black one is older that your grey, yet younger than my soon acquisition, light grey one, yet the light grey which is perhaps a year older, has the O'Byrne DeWitt on it. None of these D/C# boxes were sold in Ireland at all, were they? I guess it wasn't the style.

[triskel]

So your black one is older that your grey, yet younger than my soon acquisition, light grey one, yet the light grey which is perhaps a year older, has the O'Byrne DeWitt on it.

Um, not quite. I'd say my 2-coupler is the oldest of them, then Charlie's grey 2-voice, followed by my black one, all with the aluminium grilles, then your grey 2-coupler with the celluloid grille. But my point is that the badging of them isn't consistent.

None of these D/C# boxes were sold in Ireland at all, were they? I guess it wasn't the style.

That's right, the D/C# was a seperate Irish-American development in the 1930s, that started by adding a partial inside C# row to a D melodeon. It may have been inspired by Italian organetti that have a partial inside row of reversals.

Here in Ireland they were already starting to play "English-system" chromatic melodeons (soon to become known as "British chromatic" accordions), in C/C#, G/G# and B/C etc., influenced by Scottish players such as Peter Wyper and William Hannah.

[hibbs3]

Oops! I meant to say that the light grey was the youngest, and that your black was between your dark grey and my light grey. Which was my point on it that the one inbetween lacked the O'Byrne DeWitt script.

[hibbs3]

So your black one is older that your grey, yet younger than my soon acquisition, light grey one, yet the light grey which is perhaps a year older, has the O'Byrne DeWitt on it.

Um, not quite. I'd say my 2-coupler is the oldest of them, then Charlie's grey 2-voice, followed by my black one, all with the aluminium grilles, then your grey 2-coupler with the celluloid grille. But what I'm saying is that the badging of them isn't consistent.

None of these D/C# boxes were sold in Ireland at all, were they? I guess it wasn't the style.

That's right, the D/C# was a seperate Irish-American development in the 1930s, that started by adding a partial inside C# row to a D melodeon. It may have been inspired by Italian organetti that have a partial inside row of reversals.

Here in Ireland they were already starting to play "English-system" chromatic melodeons (soon to become known as "British chromatic" accordions), in C/C#, G/G# and B/C etc., influenced by Scottish players such as Peter Wyper and William Hannah.

What exactly was the point of these C/C# and G/G# boxes, when most, if not all trad irish was / is based around D and it's associates (A, G, Em, Bm etc...)?