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Author Topic: Paolo Soprani D/C#  (Read 49611 times)

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triskel

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Re: Paolo Soprani D/C#
« Reply #80 on: September 21, 2008, 06:19:49 AM »

What exactly was the point of these C/C# and G/G# boxes, when most, if not all trad was / is based around D and it's associates (A, G, Em, Bm etc...)?

You're assuming an awful lot!  :o

Then what's "the point" of flat pipes in C#, C, B, Bb? Why (if you check out the Stowmarket thread) is C the traditional pitch in Suffolk, or Cajun Louisiana for that matter? And why do the French play G/C boxes, and the Germans C/F???  ???

In fact traditional music has always tended to be played in the keys that instruments were available in locally, and the idea of everybody playing at "concert pitch" (= D) is a relatively recent one - you may be surprised to hear that it was only in the mid-1950s that both English and Irish button box players solved their problems of playing in D, with their adoption of the D/G and B/C systems respectively.

For my thoughts on the introduction of the semitone-tuned boxes into Ireland, you might like to check out this thread on Concertina.net: Irish Button Boxes, from Scotland

hibbs3

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Re: Paolo Soprani D/C#
« Reply #81 on: September 21, 2008, 01:10:33 PM »

accidentally left out "irish" trad...another oops!
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triskel

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Re: Paolo Soprani D/C#
« Reply #82 on: September 21, 2008, 02:02:49 PM »

accidentally left out "irish" trad...another oops!

It doesn't really matter in the context of what I was saying.

It may seem hard to imagine today, though I can still see vestiges of it, but the commonest key for all free reed instruments used to be C, and many of them were only available in whatever key(s) they came from the manufacturers in, rather than what was considered suitable locally. Not only that, but it was not until May 1939 that our "modern" International Concert Pitch of A 440 Hz was adopted (though it had already started to become accepted in the preceding few years), prior to which many different pitch standards were in use - for example there were four different civilian pitch standards in Britain (and hence Ireland) alone, plus a military band one, that went as high as half a semitone above 440, whilst German instruments could be tuned half a semitone flat of it, so a German D could be a British C#... (I've actually had problems over the re-pitching of a gorgeous c.1905 single-row Hohner because of this, the tuner not being aware of the problem, and not noticing the instrument was stamped D, tuned it to C# - I was not best-pleased!!!  :o Apart from anything else, what earthly use is a one-row in C#???)

But in Ireland, it was only in the mid-1930s that it became important for people to be able to play together, with the passing of the Dance Halls Act, and hence the starting of Ceili Bands. That was when "concert pitch" became an issue in Irish music, which had hitherto been largely solo and played at the fireside, or the crossroads.

hibbs3

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Re: Paolo Soprani D/C#
« Reply #83 on: September 21, 2008, 03:59:29 PM »

Well now I completley understand everything ;) Where'd you learn all this?
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triskel

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Re: Paolo Soprani D/C#
« Reply #84 on: September 21, 2008, 05:25:42 PM »

Where'd you learn all this?

The fruits of a life mis-spent in the company of musicians, instrument repairers, antique dealers, auctioneers, librarians (I used to be a librarian, but I'm alright now ;)), museum curators, collectors, not forgetting (very importantly) buying/selling/repairing/collecting old instruments, studying old catalogues and tutor books, but learning, learning all the time...  ::)

hibbs3

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Re: Paolo Soprani D/C#
« Reply #85 on: September 21, 2008, 05:30:25 PM »


The fruits of a life mis-spent in the company of musicians, instrument repairers, antique dealers, auctioneers, librarians (I used to be a librarian, but I'm alright now ;)), museum curators, collectors, not forgetting (very importantly) buying/selling/repairing/collecting old instruments, studying old catalogues and tutor books, but learning, learning all the time...  ::)

Sounds like a life well spent if you ask me! ;) Just wish I could be exposed to such people and marvels, but the local heritage and tradition around here is vastly different, but still interesting!

I've also often wondered how many of these gems of accordions remain in people's closets, basements or attics, stored away, never to be played again. The odd one does get lucky and is reborn again. If we could only invent some kind of accordion-calling device to awake them from the depths of which they currently lie! :o
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Malcolm Clapp

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Re: Paolo Soprani D/C#
« Reply #86 on: September 22, 2008, 02:25:47 AM »


 Apart from anything else, what earthly use is a one-row in C#???)


About as much use as a one-row in F#, I guess.

Both F# and C# single row boxes turn up quite regularly in Australia, and I note the comment about German pitch, which could well account for it. However, some I've seen are clearly marked with the key of F# or C#. and on one 1950s Serenelli 4 stop I recently repaired, G#.

However, the commonly accepted theory in Australia (right or wrong) is that these were special orders imported to enable the accordion to be played in tune with stringed instruments which were deliberately de-tuned because of climatic concerns.

I have met with older fiddle players, for instance, who always tune a semitone flat because of fears of putting too much strain on the neck.

I'm sure that this sort of thing happened in other parts of the world too. Still happening? Pretty well died out now here.

I do wonder about my old 1930s wooden Hohner 3 row, tuned to (and stamped) F#/B/E. A flat version of a common G/C/F perhaps?

Apologies for thread drift....

MC



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Tuner/repairer, now retired, but still playing! Happy to offer advice on repairs etc., and might be persuaded to undertake the odd emergency job for local and longtime  customers. Selling a few melodeons from my collection currently....

triskel

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Re: Paolo Soprani D/C#
« Reply #87 on: September 23, 2008, 12:31:40 PM »


 Apart from anything else, what earthly use is a one-row in C#???)


About as much use as a one-row in F#, I guess.

Both F# and C# single row boxes turn up quite regularly in Australia ...

Malcolm,

I guess there's always the odd exception, and where more likely to find it...  ???

So maybe I should add "... except in Australia" to what I said.  ::)

Malcolm Clapp

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Re: Paolo Soprani D/C#
« Reply #88 on: September 23, 2008, 04:36:59 PM »

Stephen,

I should perhaps have added: "Often seen, but rarely heard these days" in regards to F# and C# boxes. I've not heard of any Oz based string players detuning the semitone in recent years..

So in answer to your question "what earthly use is a one-row in C#???", I would have to reply "not much". About the same use as my F#/B/E I suppose.

But 70 years ago, it may have been a different story....



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Tuner/repairer, now retired, but still playing! Happy to offer advice on repairs etc., and might be persuaded to undertake the odd emergency job for local and longtime  customers. Selling a few melodeons from my collection currently....

hibbs3

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Re: Paolo Soprani D/C#
« Reply #89 on: September 24, 2008, 02:26:02 AM »

a newer topic made me propose this question : why did these d/c# boxes have 4 basses, and have all 4 setup so there was 2 bass and 2 chord buttons for D on the push? Standard 23 button Paolos at the time had 8 bass, and I realize that these things were "just extended melodeons", but why not get a full range of basses to add to that BIG sound these boxes generally produced? I saw from Lars' example that in the 60s the baldoni bartoli co. developed an 8 bass model, to which it had B/C chords and basses on a D/C# box! :o but why wasn't it developed til so late?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 11:06:40 AM by hibbs3 »
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triskel

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Re: Paolo Soprani D/C#
« Reply #90 on: September 24, 2008, 03:04:49 AM »

... why did these d/c# boxes have 4 basses, and have all 4 setup so there was 2 bass and 2 chord buttons for D on the push? ... I realize that these things were "just extended meloseons" ...

I think you've answered your own question - for the very reason that these boxes were "just extended melodeons"! On a single-row melodeon you only get the "oom-pah" bass pair for the home key that the instrument is pitched in, but on the D/C# boxes you get those basses for both the home key of D "on the push" (D/A), and also for G "on the pull" (D/G), and hence both pairs of basses play D on the push. It's really very simple when you're playing the box, as long as you don't confuse yourself by thinking about it too much when you aren't...   ???

hibbs3

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Re: Paolo Soprani D/C#
« Reply #91 on: September 24, 2008, 11:05:12 AM »

Haha! I know these things were considered "extended melodeons", but they're capable of almost everything a normal 23 button C#/D box would be. I believe an Iorio that was mentionned earlier has 6 basses on it, D/A D/G A/E, which is only missing the F#/Bm to have all the buttons a 23 button box would. But you're right, it is very easy, and does provide a classic "oom-pah" sound :P
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hibbs3

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Re: Paolo Soprani D/C#
« Reply #92 on: September 24, 2008, 11:08:10 AM »

and might it have had something to do with keeping the instruments cheaper?
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triskel

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Re: Paolo Soprani D/C#
« Reply #93 on: September 24, 2008, 12:08:18 PM »

and might it have had something to do with keeping the instruments cheaper?

A Baldoni was more expensive than a Paolo Soprani, I don't think cheapness entered into it, just where they were coming from. They're an unusual example of a box that was actually designed by the people who were going to play it, rather than musicians having to adapt to a "factory model".

hibbs3

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Re: Paolo Soprani D/C#
« Reply #94 on: September 24, 2008, 01:56:55 PM »


A Baldoni was more expensive than a Paolo Soprani, I don't think cheapness entered into it, just where they were coming from. They're an unusual example of a box that was actually designed by the people who were going to play it, rather than musicians having to adapt to a "factory model".

Oh ;) I forgot about hearing that these boxes were infact usually custom built to the player's wants and needs. I just think it's strange that you see many more baldonis than the Paolo Soprani equivalent, if these Paolos are as good as I hear they are, and also that they were cheaper! :o Weren't the Baldonis and Paolos mostly made in Italy?
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Lars

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Re: Paolo Soprani D/C#
« Reply #95 on: September 24, 2008, 08:00:09 PM »

Ryan,

Keep in mind that the B/C bass setup of my blue baldoni was in fact a mistake. The different design also suggest that it perhaps was made elsewhere than the 50's itlalian made ones.

But no worries -it's been changed to playing around D:)

Another thing about the bass issue is the playing style. Though you have the same notes in the same bellows direction on a D/C# as you do on a C#/D, most players doing the D/C# thing will play it more "rough", or "melodeon style". A few rolls here and there, but not nearly as many as they (we) would playing 'inside out'.

Or maybe I'm just assuming??
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hibbs3

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Re: Paolo Soprani D/C#
« Reply #96 on: September 24, 2008, 11:49:56 PM »

Another thing about the bass issue is the playing style. Though you have the same notes in the same bellows direction on a D/C# as you do on a C#/D, most players doing the D/C# thing will play it more "rough", or "melodeon style". A few rolls here and there, but not nearly as many as they (we) would playing 'inside out'.

Or maybe I'm just assuming??

That seems logical. When playing my 1.5 row, I do play it more rough and melodeon style, as compared to the way I play my C#/D. The box just seems to make you play it rough, well thats the way it feels to me ;)
« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 11:51:35 PM by hibbs3 »
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hibbs3

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Re: Paolo Soprani D/C#
« Reply #97 on: September 25, 2008, 01:06:48 AM »

Stephen,

how many of these boxes do you know of in existance? I know you have 2, John Brosnan has one, Charlie Harris another, and Chris Moran, and from what I hear, Paul Groff has one as well. And of course the one currently waiting at the button box. But are Groff's and the one at the button box the only ones left in D/C#, as the others, from what I hear, have been converted to C#/D (Although I have no idea how Harris' is still configured...)?
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hibbs3

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Re: Paolo Soprani D/C#
« Reply #98 on: December 18, 2008, 03:05:36 PM »

« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 09:48:27 PM by hibbs3 »
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boxlad

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Re: Paolo Soprani D/C#
« Reply #99 on: December 18, 2008, 05:08:40 PM »

Are the O'Byrne DeWitt Paolo Sopranis like the one Hibbs3 is getting from the Button Box really that rare? Are there only less than ten known of in existence or in use anyway not counting the chance of a good few tucked away in attics??  :-\ I cant believe this! Its amazing :o :o :o By the way how is it coming along?
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