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Author Topic: Looking for advice on buying a melodeon  (Read 6932 times)

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tzirtzi

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Looking for advice on buying a melodeon
« on: August 31, 2011, 12:31:55 AM »

Hello all!

I hope this is the right board to post this in ;).

I'm an EC player and have been intending to add a new type of box to my repertoire for some time. I'm mainly motivated by the fact that all my models (players I admire and music that I listen to) play other types of box - diatonic melodeons and piano accordions - and I'm tired of trying to imitate sounds my concertina isn't suited to! I'm not looking for a replacement for the concertina, but for a better sound specifically for playing English folk (Morris tunes etc.) and for French folk.

I was wondering if I could get experienced players' advice and opinions on where to start? When playing the concertina I started off with an accordion reeded box and found I had to upgrade within a year to match the music I wanted to play because the instrument just wasn't responsive enough - if at all possible, I'd like to avoid this with the melodeon, so how much should I be looking to spend and are there any particular brands to avoid? Then for the music I'd like to play, what tuning should I be looking at? A two row G/D seems to be generally advised for English folk, but different tuning for French folk... and what if I wanted to play a little jazz? Would I be better off (a) getting a G/D and just accepting the restrictions; (b) trying to increase my budget to get a 2.5 row to get the extra accidentals; or (c) looking at Irish-style B/C or C/C# boxes which, in theory, can play any key, but aren't particularly suited to any of the music I want to play?

Thanks in advance  (:)
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Andy in Vermont

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Re: Looking for advice on buying a melodeon
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2011, 02:29:09 AM »

Hello all!

I hope this is the right board to post this in ;).

I'm an EC player and have been intending to add a new type of box to my repertoire for some time. I'm mainly motivated by the fact that all my models (players I admire and music that I listen to) play other types of box - diatonic melodeons and piano accordions - and I'm tired of trying to imitate sounds my concertina isn't suited to! I'm not looking for a replacement for the concertina, but for a better sound specifically for playing English folk (Morris tunes etc.) and for French folk.

I was wondering if I could get experienced players' advice and opinions on where to start? When playing the concertina I started off with an accordion reeded box and found I had to upgrade within a year to match the music I wanted to play because the instrument just wasn't responsive enough - if at all possible, I'd like to avoid this with the melodeon, so how much should I be looking to spend and are there any particular brands to avoid? Then for the music I'd like to play, what tuning should I be looking at? A two row G/D seems to be generally advised for English folk, but different tuning for French folk... and what if I wanted to play a little jazz? Would I be better off (a) getting a G/D and just accepting the restrictions; (b) trying to increase my budget to get a 2.5 row to get the extra accidentals; or (c) looking at Irish-style B/C or C/C# boxes which, in theory, can play any key, but aren't particularly suited to any of the music I want to play?

Thanks in advance  (:)

A Hohner Pokerwork in D/G would be a great contrast to your EC, and great for English tunes but somewhat of a compromise for French music.
Another way to get a sound that is "far away" from your EC is to get a three-voice box, in a tuning that we melodeon-people tend to call "LMM" -- that is, two "middle" voices (sometimes called "clarinet") and one low voice (called "bassoon").  Something like a Serenellini 233 or Saltarelle Nuage, or the equivalent Castagnari.
It's all going to be a compromise because a D/G box is essential, yet D/G tuning isn't typical for many others styles where diatonic accordions are played.  So its really a question of where you'd like to start out.

Steve_freereeder

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Re: Looking for advice on buying a melodeon
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2011, 09:57:56 AM »

Hello all!

I hope this is the right board to post this in ;).
 I'm not looking for a replacement for the concertina, but for a better sound specifically for playing English folk (Morris tunes etc.) and for French folk.
.
.
.

Then for the music I'd like to play, what tuning should I be looking at? A two row G/D seems to be generally advised for English folk, but different tuning for French folk... and what if I wanted to play a little jazz? Would I be better off (a) getting a G/D and just accepting the restrictions; (b) trying to increase my budget to get a 2.5 row to get the extra accidentals; or (c) looking at Irish-style B/C or C/C# boxes which, in theory, can play any key, but aren't particularly suited to any of the music I want to play?

Thanks in advance  (:)
Welcome Tzirtzi! Congratulations on landing here from the other forum!

Based on your description of the type of music you want to play, I would recommend your first instrument to be a 2-row D/G melodeon. A Hohner Erica or Pokerwork would be ideal for Morris and English music in general, and many French tunes in G or Am would also be possible. The instruments are readily available, not too expensive and you would be in very good company; you would be able to play with many other people in sessions, etc. and there is a great deal of support available, e.g. this forum.

You would hit a snag if you wanted to play a lot of French tunes in the key of C, as although that key is possible on a D/G instrument, the patterns of bellows push/pull is not so intuitive, and it would not be solved by getting a 2.5 row. Most French players use a G/C instrument. If your budget would stretch to it, you might eventually want to consider two instruments - one in D/G and one in G/C, but that is possibly some way down the road from where you are at the moment.

From your requirements, I would also say that a semitone-tuned Irish/Scottish style tuned box in B/C or D/D# (C/C# is pretty much obsolete these days) is not the way to go for you - you would not get that characteristic rhythmic drive needed for English/Morris tunes with such an instrument.

George Garside might persuade you to consider the dark realms of the 3-row British chromatic - BCC#  ;) and to be fair, John Kirkpatrick, the master of English music uses one to great effect, but they are bigger and heavier (and more expensive/less readily available?) than the bog-standard 2-row D/G.

Incidentally, melodeons are categorised by their tuning from the outside row inwards, so we have D/G, G/C, C/F boxes etc. Anglo concertinas are t' other way round C/G, G/D, etc. 

Good luck in your search and decision-making! Let us know how you get on....
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Looking for advice on buying a melodeon
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2011, 11:26:12 AM »

Hah! Another EC player.....welcome  (:)
As I've discovered, there are a surprising number of EC players on this forum, me included.

A year ago at the Sidmouth festival I took the plunge and bought a D/G melodeon for much of the same reasons as you have said. I went around all the stalls and picked up every box available and looked, fondled, tried it for size, pressed a button or two etc. I could hardly get a tune out, so couldn't really 'play' one to try but still learnt a lot form handling each melodeon.
Size mattered for me cos i've got small hands and can't reach the bass buttons on some larger boxes.
Coming from a responsive concertina, I also put back a lot of boxes because they were just so unresponsive that it felt like I was waiting for a note after pressing a button!
There's some good advice coming your way already, I'd add a little by saying go and try as many as possible. Sadly the main festival season is finishing, so you won't find as many choices in one spot as at -say- Sidmouth festival, but if possible take a trip around as many of the larger retailers and pick up, squeeze, physically hold something that is a lot larger than your normal instrument and let your hands guide you.
Pick your friend's brains, talk to morris musicians etc..... again try as many as you can find.
Last year,  8 stalls and many melodeons later, one simply jumped off the shelf at me and felt so 'right' and we are now very happy together, driving the rest of the family mad  :|||:
....and when you've got one, become a regular on this forum, as the advice freely given is absolutely brilliant, as i've learned.
Best of luck in choosing.
cheers
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

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Re: Looking for advice on buying a melodeon
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2011, 03:24:17 PM »

Welcome, tzirtzi! I would agree wholeheartedly with almost all that Steve Freereader says (he usually talks a lot of sense, but don't tell him I said so!)  >:E

However, I would disagree with his point about not going down the 2.5 row route. If you were a complete beginner, perhaps, but you are already an experienced EC player and will no doubt adapt quickly to the melodeon. I would advise a D/G (essential for English tunes, including Morris), but the half row enables you to play a lot of French music, not only because it will give you the F natural to play in the key of C, but also because it will give you the accidentals to play in G minor and D minor, which are also popular keys for French music.

Rather than carry around a D/G for playing English music plus a G/C for playing French tunes, I carry just one box -  either a 2.5 or 3 row (with a row of accidentals). This enables me to play in all the keys one is likely to encounter in English and French music. The fingering for playing in C is different from that you would use on a G/C box, but it is no more difficult provided you play across the rows, which I also tend to do in D and G.

As has been discussed at length on another thread, a box with a fourth button start rather than the conventional thrid button start has the advantage of leaving room for low notes that enable you to play tunes that drop well below the key note.

As for which brands to go for, it is probably best to avoid anything made in China. Try as many different boxes as you can and see which suits you best. Personally, I prefer those with mushroom keys to those with parallel-sided keys (e.g. Hohners) but, coming from an EC background, you may prefer the parallel sided keys.

You get what you pay for, by and large, so buy the best you can afford. Good instruments hold their value well - some even increase in value - so don't be too worried that you might spend a lot of money on an instrument that you later decide is not for you. If it is a good instrument, you will probably not lose money if you decide to resell it.
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Dazbo

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Re: Looking for advice on buying a melodeon
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2011, 05:41:46 PM »

If you're playing on your own I'd suggest you get a DG and with some mental gymnastics (I do it so it can't be too difficult) pretend it's a GC when you're playing French stuff (that way when you get a GC box - which you will ;D - you've already got the fingering sorted out).   Most continental box players play in the upper octave (i.e. scale starts on the 6th button rather than on the 3rd on a DG) so I'm not so sure a 4th button start with low notes and accidentals is the way forward for playing a GC box as a) you won't need the low notes and b) you may need the buttons you loose at the top end.  Trying to play in C on a DG box is finger twisting tricky and you won't have an F bass or chord on the bass side.

A two and a half row with 12 bass could enable you to play in the keys you want but the arrangement of the accidentals and basses varies between manufacturers and most players seem to end up customising the position of the accidentals as they don't fit their needs.  Unfortunately, this may not become apparent until you've been playing it for a while.

So my advice is get the most expensive DG box you can afford (and like, obviously - try as many instruments and makers as you can get your hands on) and not bother about anything else for now.  Once your on your way you can decide what suits your needs best.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 05:47:24 PM by Dazbo »
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Re: Looking for advice on buying a melodeon
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2011, 06:23:00 PM »

I think you will have to accept the fact that, unlike your EC, melodeons are very key specific.  They excel in creating dance rhythms in a limited number of keys.  I think you will be greatly disappointed if you get a 2.5 row D/G thinking you can play French music in C and a little jazz.  Choose your melodeon to play in the keys it was designed for.  For Morris you need a D/G...for french you will want a G/C.  I also disagree with the blanket warning against Chinese instruments and the advice to buy as expensive as you can initially.  The Hohners that are made in china now are pretty good for the most part.  Your best bet is to buy one (chinese or preferably german made) used and then get the reeds set and tuned or buy a used instrument from one of the restorers on this forum.  The primary thing all the new and used Hohners lack is reed setting and tuning.
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tzirtzi

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Re: Looking for advice on buying a melodeon
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2011, 06:56:05 PM »

Thank you everyone for your replies! It sounds like the strong general consensus in terms of key is to get a D/G and work with it, so I'm happy to consider that point decided.

As to 2-row vs 2.5-row, the more research I do the more I'm beginning to realise that most 2.5-rows may be outside my budget anyway, so that question may end up being decided for me. One that I have come across that's only just outside my budget is the Hohner Merlin - does anyone have any experience of this box?

Now for a few specific replies...

A Hohner Pokerwork in D/G would be a great contrast to your EC, and great for English tunes but somewhat of a compromise for French music.

I've been advised that these are loud enough that they're usually only appropriate for outdoor/empty house playing - is that right?

Quote
Another way to get a sound that is "far away" from your EC is to get a three-voice box, in a tuning that we melodeon-people tend to call "LMM" -- that is, two "middle" voices (sometimes called "clarinet") and one low voice (called "bassoon").  Something like a Serenellini 233 or Saltarelle Nuage, or the equivalent Castagnari.

I've been keeping this comment in mind when doing my research this evening, but few sellers and makers seem to give any more specific information than the number of voices (i.e. they don't specify whether they're LMM vs MMM vs LMH etc.). Is there anywhere particular I might be able to look this sort of thing up, or am I best just asking on here about specific models and hoping to find someone who knows? Sadly the Serenellini 233 and Salterelle Nuage are both a bit out of my realistic price range (which I'd planned to be around £700-£1000 - potentially more than I spent even on my second concertina, but, I'm quickly realising, actually not that much to spend on a melodeon :-\).

Welcome Tzirtzi! Congratulations on landing here from the other forum!

Thanks!  ;D

Quote
Incidentally, melodeons are categorised by their tuning from the outside row inwards, so we have D/G, G/C, C/F boxes etc. Anglo concertinas are t' other way round C/G, G/D, etc.

Ah, thanks for the info - important to get the nomenclature right.

Size mattered for me cos i've got small hands and can't reach the bass buttons on some larger boxes.

I've got pretty big hands, yet being used to the concertina strongly biases me towards the smaller boxes of all those I've picked up..

Quote
I'd add a little by saying go and try as many as possible. Sadly the main festival season is finishing, so you won't find as many choices in one spot as at -say- Sidmouth festival, but if possible take a trip around as many of the larger retailers and pick up, squeeze, physically hold something that is a lot larger than your normal instrument and let your hands guide you.

I did go around and try quite a few at Shrewsbury festival last weekend, but I have to admit didn't find it as enlightening as I'd hoped - I'm used to trying old concertinas ( (1) are the bellows airtight? (2) do all the reeds actually sound? (3) how responsive is it? (4) now start thinking about how it sounds...) but this is a rather different exercise.. I'll aim to go out to the local(ish) shop and try some more before actually buying.

Your best bet is to buy one (chinese or preferably german made) used and then get the reeds set and tuned or buy a used instrument from one of the restorers on this forum.  The primary thing all the new and used Hohners lack is reed setting and tuning.

Thanks - this isn't something that would have occurred to me, so I'll keep it in mind.
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Lester

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Re: Looking for advice on buying a melodeon
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2011, 07:01:14 PM »

Quote
I've been advised that these are loud enough that they're usually only appropriate for outdoor/empty house playing - is that right?

Melodeons are only loud if the player plays them loud. I have pokerworks that are mor than capable of being played quietly.

Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Looking for advice on buying a melodeon
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2011, 07:30:58 PM »

I too was at Shrewsbury. The stalls there, Music Room specifically, were quite small and only about a third of what I looked at last year. It was more a 'representative sample' as opposed to all their stock.
I can understand you not being enlightened!
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

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Re: Looking for advice on buying a melodeon
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2011, 07:37:07 PM »


I've been keeping this comment in mind when doing my research this evening, but few sellers and makers seem to give any more specific information than the number of voices (i.e. they don't specify whether they're LMM vs MMM vs LMH etc.). Is there anywhere particular I might be able to look this sort of thing up, or am I best just asking on here about specific models and hoping to find someone who knows? Sadly the Serenellini 233 and Salterelle Nuage are both a bit out of my realistic price range (which I'd planned to be around £700-£1000 - potentially more than I spent even on my second concertina, but, I'm quickly realising, actually not that much to spend on a melodeon :-\).


You might find this article of interest...
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/page,voices_tunings.html
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Re: Looking for advice on buying a melodeon
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2011, 07:41:18 PM »

I've been advised that (pokerworks) are loud enough that they're usually only appropriate for outdoor/empty house playing - is that right?

No melodeon is really quiet, and there are louder melodeons than a Pokerwork.
It's true that a Pokerwork is not the best for playing really quietly; that's an expensive attribute.

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Re: Looking for advice on buying a melodeon
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2011, 08:11:43 PM »

Quote
I've been advised that these are loud enough that they're usually only appropriate for outdoor/empty house playing - is that right?

Melodeons are only loud if the player plays them loud. I have pokerworks that are mor than capable of being played quietly.

And for your budget you might just about manage to get two Hohners, a D/G and a G/C,  or one and a spare set of reedblocks and reeds.
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Re: Looking for advice on buying a melodeon
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2011, 11:25:55 AM »

If you're particularly isolated, then I understand the need to buy a melodeon.  Depending on where you are based, it may be possible to befriend a player and maybe borrow his spare box (most have one), which will allow you to get a few tunes under your belt so you'll be ready to try out a prospective purchase.

I started by borrowing a Pokerwork and playing it in a soundproofed room at work during lunch hours.  This was followed by buying a second-hand Dino Baffetti three voice as my first box.  Most 3 voice boxes are LMM nowadays, with the exception of those for the Irish tradition which are often MMM and usually advertised as such.  The seller should be able to advise you on which it is.

Rob.
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Re: Looking for advice on buying a melodeon
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2011, 12:05:06 PM »

If you're particularly isolated, then I understand the need to buy a melodeon. 

You can also ask any retailer if they will send you a box on approval (I do).  In fact if you are buying from a website the Distance Selling Regulations give you a legal right to a cooling off period where you can return goods for a refund.
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Re: Looking for advice on buying a melodeon
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2011, 04:18:28 PM »

The other route is to:-
1. sort out a list of 'possible' melodeons, ones you have tried and do like. Pester people, ask, try, fondle etc. and get a feel for some.
Make a list of those you like.
2. keep an eye open on the 'Buy and Sell" forum here, or some of the sellers as mentioned on this site. People often do upgrade or move on to another box simply for a change.

A second choice for me, after the Tommy was a Dino Baffetti Black Pearl II. It fitted my criteria, was a huge amount cheaper, though I did prefer the Tommy. They do come along fairly frequently, and many rate them as morris boxes. It would hopefully fit in your price bracket second hand.
Buying second hand is often a good way to go, a lot like cars. Second hand melodeons are good value, and have been played in so they are often a lot more responsive etc.
.....just choose one that's been played as opposed to thrashed, much the same as a car!
cheers
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

tzirtzi

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Re: Looking for advice on buying a melodeon
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2011, 11:50:47 PM »

You might find this article of interest...
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/page,voices_tunings.html

Thanks, that was useful  (:)

And for your budget you might just about manage to get two Hohners, a D/G and a G/C,  or one and a spare set of reedblocks and reeds.

That's an interesting idea - indeed, I have noticed a couple of second hand Pokerworks for sale at or under £500 each. Though I have to admit, my instinct is that I should either decide to accept the restrictions or go with an instrument with fewer restrictions - and either way buy a single, better instrument at the start - rather than spend extra money on a second instrument..

If you're particularly isolated, then I understand the need to buy a melodeon.  Depending on where you are based, it may be possible to befriend a player and maybe borrow his spare box (most have one), which will allow you to get a few tunes under your belt so you'll be ready to try out a prospective purchase.

I started by borrowing a Pokerwork and playing it in a soundproofed room at work during lunch hours.  This was followed by buying a second-hand Dino Baffetti three voice as my first box.  Most 3 voice boxes are LMM nowadays, with the exception of those for the Irish tradition which are often MMM and usually advertised as such.  The seller should be able to advise you on which it is.

Rob.

That sounds like an extremely sensible approach - sadly, I'm about to move house (in fact, over the next week) to a new area where I don't know any players (compared to where I live right now, where I know almost no players  :-\), so it might take me a while to find and get to know someone willing to lend me their box..

The other route is to:-
1. sort out a list of 'possible' melodeons, ones you have tried and do like. Pester people, ask, try, fondle etc. and get a feel for some.
Make a list of those you like.
2. keep an eye open on the 'Buy and Sell" forum here, or some of the sellers as mentioned on this site. People often do upgrade or move on to another box simply for a change.

A second choice for me, after the Tommy was a Dino Baffetti Black Pearl II. It fitted my criteria, was a huge amount cheaper, though I did prefer the Tommy. They do come along fairly frequently, and many rate them as morris boxes. It would hopefully fit in your price bracket second hand.
Buying second hand is often a good way to go, a lot like cars. Second hand melodeons are good value, and have been played in so they are often a lot more responsive etc.
.....just choose one that's been played as opposed to thrashed, much the same as a car!
cheers
Q

I'll certainly be keeping my eye out for second hand boxes. I just visited Hobgoblin this afternoon and had a go on a couple of their melodeons within my price range - a Pokerwork and, as it happens, a second hand D/G Dino Baffetti Black Pearl II. It seemed in good working order and generally good nick, but given that all I can play at this point is a scale, the only real sort of comparison I felt able to make was of the tone of the two of them - Rob's suggestion above would seem to be right thing to do here. The chap working there was more keen to persuade me I should take up a chromatic - whether CBA or piano accordion - instead :P.
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Re: Looking for advice on buying a melodeon
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2011, 03:04:54 PM »

It seems to me (with my limited experience in the melodeon world) that DBA's present a somewhat unique situation. Although there are more "sophisticated", better built, & much more expensive DBA's out there, the basic Hohner 2 row - Pokerwork/Erica etc. - still represents a "standard". The sound of the basic Hohner is distinctive & desirable, not just a cheap version of what more expensive DBA's offer. In this sense, the beginning DBA player is in a great position: able to buy a cheap instrument that is a "classic", not just something that has to be replaced with a "better" instrument later.

Having said all that, I wouldn't go out & buy a new Pokerwork - rather look for a good, less expensive vintage model. You asked about a Merlin - I had the opportunity to try a Morgane recently & I was struck by the superior build quality & playability compared to a Pokerwork. If I were choosing between a new, full-price Pokerwork & a Morgane, I would pay the little extra for the Morgane ...
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Re: Looking for advice on buying a melodeon
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2011, 04:57:41 PM »

Where are you moving to?  Perhaps someone here can help by introducing you to the local scene (participation optional).

Rob.
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tzirtzi

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Re: Looking for advice on buying a melodeon
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2011, 06:22:27 PM »

It seems to me (with my limited experience in the melodeon world) that DBA's present a somewhat unique situation. Although there are more "sophisticated", better built, & much more expensive DBA's out there, the basic Hohner 2 row - Pokerwork/Erica etc. - still represents a "standard". The sound of the basic Hohner is distinctive & desirable, not just a cheap version of what more expensive DBA's offer. In this sense, the beginning DBA player is in a great position: able to buy a cheap instrument that is a "classic", not just something that has to be replaced with a "better" instrument later.

Hmm, that's very interesting. I have to admit I've been assuming that they were like concertinas - that is, the "beginner" models (e.g. Stagis, Concertina Connection concertinas) really are too unsubtle and too slow to respond to learn on once you get to a certain point, so if you start on one of these you really do have to upgrade to keep learning. It sounds like this isn't the case with certain lower end melodeons?

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Having said all that, I wouldn't go out & buy a new Pokerwork - rather look for a good, less expensive vintage model.

Thanks for the advice (:) Is this because there is a significant different between current Pokerworks and vintage models (i.e. that build quality has changed) or simply because you can get the same box in good condition cheaper if it's vintage?

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You asked about a Merlin - I had the opportunity to try a Morgane recently & I was struck by the superior build quality & playability compared to a Pokerwork. If I were choosing between a new, full-price Pokerwork & a Morgane, I would pay the little extra for the Morgane ...

Thanks, that's useful info.

Where are you moving to?  Perhaps someone here can help by introducing you to the local scene (participation optional).

Rob.

I'm moving to Oxford - I guess it might be quite a good place for traditional music, but I don't know yet!
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