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Author Topic: The 21st Century Box  (Read 33988 times)

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oggiesnr

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2011, 02:30:47 PM »

So instead of carrying lots of different boxes for different keys I want to be able to undo a flap (or similar) and slide out a set of reeds and slip another one into place.  Same principle as the Harmonix mouth organs.  Likewise, onboard effects processor or recording module.

Steve
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Chris Ryall

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2011, 03:03:17 PM »

Given that the block (mine at least) wil lbe cut out with a digitally driven router, may we accept Oggies idea of a securing rebate as a no brainer? I had only envisaged silicone as a 'bead' and it would be fully cured before plugging in. But that point about (possible) accoustic damping is well made. .

Moderrn engineering tollerances are a fraction of what they were when the first Italian - Virgil according to Georgic IV  ;) raidied a bees hive to find something to cement in his newly invented "voci armoniche". A 21st century plate should fit that rebate perfectly and be air tight in itself - just a screw (or clip?) to hold it?

Why are we mounting those plates "flat" anyway? Let's make our block solid (perhaps 2 moities bolted or glued) with rectangular chambers inside, and slots across. to hold the reed plat in 'divider' postition..

It would need a panel at the side for access (that would need a gsket!).  Should a reed 'upset' ... take out the 8-10 side panel screws bolts to reveal the chambers - sliide the relavent plate out and fiddle with (or replace) it.  Reassemble. Simples.  It makes Wouter's bi-annual retune -  a doddle!

I guess aome of the chambers might need offsets within tha block. As we are machinng out, their air paths could be angled, to reconcile such an arrangment to a regular keyboard.

Do we need pallets still? Something more akin to a car cylinder valve design might be better. These can open/close 3000/second - though I suspect we'd use a  rather weaker spring for melodeons :Ph  Chris

PS (Steve beat me in) does this solve your key change issue?  I suspect in practice you'd change the whole blovk (depending on cost). Or a 3-row might be cheaper  >:E
« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 03:09:26 PM by Chris Ryall »
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Lester

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2011, 03:07:41 PM »

Why are we assuming current reed plates in these discussions? Why do we not get <insert your preferred reed provider here> to do all the reed block manufacture and attach the reed tongues to the block individually as in concertina reeds with a small saddle. This gets around all the wax/screw/silicone debate.

Concertina reed
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Steve C.

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2011, 04:05:20 PM »

In Lillys are not the reeds mounted right on the soundboard?  I thought the sound board contributed to the sound, not an "air" sound?  I feel like you can feel a Lilly vibrate (a little).
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Anahata

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2011, 08:17:24 PM »

In Lillys are not the reeds mounted right on the soundboard?  I thought the sound board contributed to the sound, not an "air" sound?  I feel like you can feel a Lilly vibrate (a little).

The sound is different in any box with the reeds mounted on the soundboard, but that's because the reeds are closer to the pallette aperture and there isn't the air space that you have in a reed block.

Come to think of it, that may also be why the Lilly sounds from a distance like a loud concertina. Years ago (when I didn't know about the reeds being flat against the sound board) I wondered why this was, and I knew it wasn't just because it was a single voice instrument.
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mory

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2011, 08:28:24 PM »

I think the Lilly is a higher pressure instrument (like the concertina) because of the small bellows, combined with the flat reeds makes it LOUD. I first noticed the flat mounted reed affect when tuning some old accordion reeds off their racks totally differant volume. The good 1 row box's employ the same principles 1 or 2 rows of reeds flat mounted out of the 4 rows and high pressure from the small bellows pure power great ;D mory

incidently the Loffet single voice although virtually the same construction, I found less powerful, I think mainly due to a deeper volume to the reed vaults
« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 08:31:56 PM by mory »
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Owen Woods

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2011, 11:27:59 PM »

5) a way to bend tones (other then 1voice-breaking-your-reed-way)

A chap called Thomas(?) Tonan has done just this. It was in a magazine that my supervisor leant me that I have since returned and can't find much on the internet about them.
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Bob Ellis

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2011, 12:32:09 AM »

On Emmanuel Pariselle's melodeon-making course, we screwed the reeds to the blocks. One of the advantages of this is that they are easy to adjust or remove when necessary. The sealing material around the reed plates was something called 'ollavici' (I have probably spelt this incorrectly). Can someone tell me what this material is?
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Cooper

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2011, 09:38:25 AM »

5) a way to bend tones (other then 1voice-breaking-your-reed-way)

A chap called Thomas(?) Tonan has done just this. It was in a magazine that my supervisor leant me that I have since returned and can't find much on the internet about them.

Cool! Will try to find info as well :-)
W
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Theo

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2011, 11:43:25 AM »

5) a way to bend tones (other then 1voice-breaking-your-reed-way)

A chap called Thomas(?) Tonan has done just this. It was in a magazine that my supervisor leant me that I have since returned and can't find much on the internet about them.

Cool! Will try to find info as well :-)
W

His website is http://www.bluesbox.biz/  with plenty of information, but the details of how his pitch bend works is kept carefully under wraps!
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Theo Gibb

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Theo

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2011, 01:17:07 PM »

the details of how his pitchbend works is kept carefully under wraps!

Something to do with Uranium? (though I can think of other things to do with it)  :|glug

[geek mode]
No, the uranium mineral is pitchblende, which I suppose could also have musical connotations.
(I used to be a geologist)
[/geek mode]
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rmenhinick

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2011, 01:25:17 PM »

the details of how his pitchbend works is kept carefully under wraps!

Something to do with Uranium? (though I can think of other things to do with it)  :|glug

[geek mode]
No, the uranium mineral is pitchblende, which I suppose could also have musical connotations.
(I used to be a geologist)
[/geek mode]

Isn't a PITCHBLEND just a fancy name for a chord?  ;D
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Cooper

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2011, 01:25:52 PM »

the details of how his pitchbend works is kept carefully under wraps!

Something to do with Uranium? (though I can think of other things to do with it)  :|glug

[geek mode]
No, the uranium mineral is pitchblende, which I suppose could also have musical connotations.
(I used to be a geologist)
[/geek mode]

heh, geologist +1, though i neer worked as one.
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Theo

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2011, 01:47:22 PM »

heh, geologist +1, though i neer worked as one.

Me neither.  Steve Freereeder did thoiugh.
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Theo Gibb

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Clive Williams

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #54 on: September 19, 2011, 02:22:41 PM »

5) a way to bend tones (other then 1voice-breaking-your-reed-way)

A chap called Thomas(?) Tonan has done just this. It was in a magazine that my supervisor leant me that I have since returned and can't find much on the internet about them.

Cool! Will try to find info as well :-)
W

His website is http://www.bluesbox.biz/  with plenty of information, but the details of how his pitch bend works is kept carefully under wraps!

He has a patent on it, which while it means we can't copy it, does mean we can satisfy our curiosity, courtesy of Google's patent search:

So, here you go:

Tom Tonon's pitch bend patent

Cheers,

Clive

Owen Woods

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2011, 02:30:11 PM »

Ah, that's why I couldn't find any info, I spelt it wrong (:) Thanks for the patent Clive, interesting stuff.
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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #56 on: September 24, 2011, 12:00:06 AM »

heh, geologist +1, though i neer worked as one.

Me neither.  Steve Freereeder did thoiugh.
Yep! Coal mining geologist. Down in the dark and dirties for 20 years, then sunny side up with the BGS for another 12. Still at it - teaching geology at the university here in Sheffield. 
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Chris Ryall

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2011, 08:10:22 AM »

Ideas from other threads

Certainly the aluminium board in my posh box gives a sharper tone (cuts into your ear like a chisel!) than another box from the same maker with a ply board.  The transmission path is so short and wide from the reed to the outside air that I'm not convinced that the wood has as much effect on the tone - I could be wrong, of course.  It would be interesting to compare if anyone made a board from an even more accoustically neutral composite, concrete perhaps?  Presumably the Holy Grail for an experimenter would be a material so rigid and non-resonant it doesn't have any sympathetic vibration causing loss of enegy at the reed.  Sound deadening materials for engine compartments use a composite of varying density rubbers sandwiching a lead foil layer.  How about an ali/lead/ali sandwich?

I have to say I'm deeply impressed by his approach to construction and the precision metalwork is very appealing ..... It's not totally incongruous for a musical instrument to have precision metalwork like that - look at any modern wind instrument with lots of keys on it, like a clarinet, flute or oboe. There's lots of bushes, bearings, levers and tiny screws, all custom made, none of your Heath Robinson bits of bent wire there...  (and come to think of it, if a wind instrument uses cork pads, why not a squeezebox?)
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oggiesnr

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2011, 06:55:15 PM »



(and come to think of it, if a wind instrument uses cork pads, why not a squeezebox?)

[/quote]

Maintenance of the cork would be a pain.  On a clarinet they receive a certain amount of incidental moisture from the breath passing through the instrument but even then they can and do dry out and split or come adrift.  Inside a melodeon I suspect the problem would be worse

Maybe a better option would be the balck nitrile used in "O" rings.

Steve
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Telemorris

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #59 on: September 30, 2011, 07:14:15 PM »



(and come to think of it, if a wind instrument uses cork pads, why not a squeezebox?)


Maintenance of the cork would be a pain.  On a clarinet they receive a certain amount of incidental moisture from the breath passing through the instrument but even then they can and do dry out and split or come adrift.  Inside a melodeon I suspect the problem would be worse

Maybe a better option would be the balck nitrile used in "O" rings.

Steve
[/quote]

I just took a look at the design of the tone holes in a flute. The tone holes that are closed by a pad are actually thin rings raised above the surface of the tube. The cork beds into that thin ring. I wonder if anyone has ever inserted metal tubes into the palletboard holes with a raised edge to provide a better seal? Seems a bit much and could cause problems with a wood soundboard shrinking and expanding around it. Also not sure such a thing is necessary.

Ed
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