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Author Topic: The 21st Century Box  (Read 34850 times)

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Owen Woods

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #60 on: September 30, 2011, 09:24:20 PM »

Interesting idea though. You could probably get a better seal, cerrtainly you could use a smaller pallet. The grafton plastic sax had innovative pads, just rings of plasticcy stuff. Could adapt that kind of technology. Have to admit that I don't know what the advantage of having pads with chimneys instead of pallets flush with the fondosoundbaseboard would be though :P
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2011, 12:45:29 AM »



(and come to think of it, if a wind instrument uses cork pads, why not a squeezebox?)


Maintenance of the cork would be a pain.  On a clarinet they receive a certain amount of incidental moisture from the breath passing through the instrument but even then they can and do dry out and split or come adrift.  Inside a melodeon I suspect the problem would be worse

Maybe a better option would be the balck nitrile used in "O" rings.

Steve
Hang on a tick.... the pads which seal the tone holes on woodwind instruments are not actually made of cork at all. They are a carefully constructed composite consisting of a felt disk glued to a thin card disk (a bit like a concertina pad) and then covered with very thin flexible leather or fish skin. See HERE.
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oggiesnr

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2011, 07:05:58 AM »

Still cork on my clarinet but it's of an older vintage  (:)

Steve
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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2011, 07:26:50 AM »

Still cork on my clarinet but it's of an older vintage  (:)

Steve
That's really unusual then; skin or leather covered felt/card composite pads for woodwind instruments have been around since the early part of the 19th century. They were developed by clarinet maker and player Iwan Müller in 1812.
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IanD

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2011, 10:47:25 AM »

Ideas from other threads

Certainly the aluminium board in my posh box gives a sharper tone (cuts into your ear like a chisel!) than another box from the same maker with a ply board.  The transmission path is so short and wide from the reed to the outside air that I'm not convinced that the wood has as much effect on the tone - I could be wrong, of course.  It would be interesting to compare if anyone made a board from an even more accoustically neutral composite, concrete perhaps?  Presumably the Holy Grail for an experimenter would be a material so rigid and non-resonant it doesn't have any sympathetic vibration causing loss of enegy at the reed.  Sound deadening materials for engine compartments use a composite of varying density rubbers sandwiching a lead foil layer.  How about an ali/lead/ali sandwich?

I have to say I'm deeply impressed by his approach to construction and the precision metalwork is very appealing ..... It's not totally incongruous for a musical instrument to have precision metalwork like that - look at any modern wind instrument with lots of keys on it, like a clarinet, flute or oboe. There's lots of bushes, bearings, levers and tiny screws, all custom made, none of your Heath Robinson bits of bent wire there...  (and come to think of it, if a wind instrument uses cork pads, why not a squeezebox?)

I suspect it's the thinness of the ali (more direct sound path out) that helps with the sharper sound (or other differences between the two boxes such as reeds) rather than any direct material properties -- as was said on the reed blocks thread, almost all the stiffness of the assembly comes from the reed blocks themselves which are clamped to the body at each end, and these will damp any resonances in the pallet board to such an extent that it probably doesn't matter what it's made out of so long as it's flat and airtight -- and reasonably rigid so it doesn't bend away from the reed blocks and cause leaks.

Of course if the reeds were flat-mounted onto a CNC milled aluminium "reed pan" you could have the thickness under the pallets as thin as you liked, because all the rigidity would come from the webs between the reed chambers. Another possible reason for trying this...

I've got a radical plan on how to get all reeds flat-mounted like this for a 25-button (21+4) 2-voice into a reasonable size box, if anyone's interested ;-)

Ian (wearing my engineering hat)
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diatonix

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2011, 11:07:25 AM »





Show us, please, Ian.
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IanD

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2011, 12:55:40 PM »





Show us, please, Ian.

I would but I get a message saying the upload folder is full -- can an admin fix this?
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Clive Williams

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2011, 02:32:05 PM »


I would but I get a message saying the upload folder is full -- can an admin fix this?

Done!

Telemorris

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2011, 04:56:06 PM »


I've got a radical plan on how to get all reeds flat-mounted like this for a 25-button (21+4) 2-voice into a reasonable size box, if anyone's interested ;-)

Ian (wearing my engineering hat)

I want to see this design!

I'm working on building a flat mount reed pan for a 25 button (21+4) 2 voice, but it's made out of wood (I don't have access to a CNC). Basically a copy of the Preciosa that I have. Photos here.

Ed
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 04:58:52 PM by Telemorris »
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IanD

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2011, 06:15:08 PM »


I've got a radical plan on how to get all reeds flat-mounted like this for a 25-button (21+4) 2-voice into a reasonable size box, if anyone's interested ;-)

Ian (wearing my engineering hat)

I want to see this design!

I'm working on building a flat mount reed pan for a 25 button (21+4) 2 voice, but it's made out of wood (I don't have access to a CNC). Basically a copy of the Preciosa that I have. Photos here.

Ed

First two pages from my notebook...
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IanD

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2011, 06:16:03 PM »


I've got a radical plan on how to get all reeds flat-mounted like this for a 25-button (21+4) 2-voice into a reasonable size box, if anyone's interested ;-)

Ian (wearing my engineering hat)

I want to see this design!

I'm working on building a flat mount reed pan for a 25 button (21+4) 2 voice, but it's made out of wood (I don't have access to a CNC). Basically a copy of the Preciosa that I have. Photos here.

Ed

And the second two pages -- enjoy :-)

Cheers

Ian
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diatonix

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2011, 09:11:34 PM »

I find it a bit hard to interprete your drawings. Could you explain the general idea in words?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 09:13:46 PM by diatonix »
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Clive Williams

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #72 on: October 01, 2011, 09:36:06 PM »

Cunning. If I'm interpreting it right, it's one flat reed pan rather than the preciosa's two, the reeds grouped in rows of three (mostly), and a mix of vertical and horizontally orientated pallets (look at the first diagram closely)

diatonix

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2011, 10:09:38 PM »

Ok, got it... Interesting thought, you certainly use all available space on the interior side of the soundboard and very cleverly so. However, making a well functioning keyboard will be a very complex matter.
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IanD

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2011, 10:58:19 PM »

Ok, got it... Interesting thought, you certainly use all available space on the interior side of the soundboard and very cleverly so. However, making a well functioning keyboard will be a very complex matter.

I don't think the keyboard will be so difficult, it's very like a Castagnari Tommy if you've ever seen inside one; the pallets furthest from the keyboard are on normal levers, the pallets closest are on double-action levers with the pivot at the front of the box.

The key is mixing "normal" orientation pallets for the outer reeds (2 holes under the pallet for 2 reeds in-line) with "rotated" orientation pallets for the inner reeds (2 holes under the pallet for 2 reeds side-by-side). It's the only way of getting everything to fit in 1 layer given the typical size of reed plates, because there's only enough space for 3 rows of reed plates laid flat (except for the highest reeds where the smaller size means you can fit 4 rows in).

The stacked reed setup of the Preciosa makes access and tuning a nightmare, and there's definitely a difference in sound between the upper and lower banks. Having them all flat in one layer avoids this, and means a CNC-milled reed pan is feasible.

I chose the reed orientation with the pallet over the free end of the reed which is also where the chamber is deepest -- each chamber can be tapered to keep the free space to a minimum. If this isn't the right thing to do (which was suggested in another posting) then the reeds can easily be reversed. With CNC milling it would be very quick and easy to try both...

However the limit with a "standard" size box is pretty much 50 reeds, so this won't work if you want 3 voices -- but I was trying to devise the ideal English 2-reed box so I didn't care :-)
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 11:14:25 PM by IanD »
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Owen Woods

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #75 on: October 02, 2011, 01:14:19 AM »

An interesting idea and I think that it could work. Would be interesting to try. However, the third voice might be tricky, since unless you wanted it to be enormous, they would have to be mounted in a block.

Actually, have you seen the pictures of the Schweizeorgeli? A reed box like that milled of aly might be interesting, if you could live with the potty mechanism. That could get you a third voice.
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IanD

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #76 on: October 02, 2011, 11:49:27 AM »

An interesting idea and I think that it could work. Would be interesting to try. However, the third voice might be tricky, since unless you wanted it to be enormous, they would have to be mounted in a block.

Actually, have you seen the pictures of the Schweizeorgeli? A reed box like that milled of aly might be interesting, if you could live with the potty mechanism. That could get you a third voice.

The whole concept was to come up with the best possible 2-reed box, since that's what I prefer for "English" music, so I'm not bothered about not being able to get a third voice in.

And as soon as you do something like the Schweizeorgeli you've gone away from the whole flat-mounted reeds concept...
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Steve C.

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #77 on: October 02, 2011, 02:46:41 PM »

Ian, not a big thing, but I would start initialling and dating my pages now.
You never know when you will have that idea that it so good it gets stolen.
Though I do guess that a lot of ideas on mel.net are kind of presented as "open source"
(just because I am paranoid does not mean that there is not someone after me)
(maybe intellectual ideas paranoia is an americano thing)
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IanD

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #78 on: October 02, 2011, 04:26:02 PM »

Ian, not a big thing, but I would start initialling and dating my pages now.
You never know when you will have that idea that it so good it gets stolen.
Though I do guess that a lot of ideas on mel.net are kind of presented as "open source"
(just because I am paranoid does not mean that there is not someone after me)
(maybe intellectual ideas paranoia is an americano thing)

Don't worry, I thought of this but decided it wasn't worth it -- initialling and dating pages only works in the USA anyway ("first to invent"), the rest of the world is first-to-file.

Having a lot of involvement with patents through work (I hold more than 30) they only work if you've got deep pockets to pay for a patent lawsuit and if whoever you're suing has enough money to be worth it -- which I can pretty much guarantee is not the case on melnet... :-)
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Owen Woods

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Re: The 21st Century Box
« Reply #79 on: October 02, 2011, 07:52:19 PM »

And as soon as you do something like the Schweizeorgeli you've gone away from the whole flat-mounted reeds concept...

I'm not so sure. All of the reeds are flat mounted in the Orgeli, in that the pallet lies in the same direction as the reed... rather than perpendicular as in a block.
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