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Author Topic: Melodeon History Sites ?  (Read 30925 times)

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Martin J

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Melodeon History Sites ?
« on: August 25, 2008, 01:55:13 PM »

This Q has probably been asked before but is there site which shows all the old models and their details.

I often have trouble locating certain models and end up doing google searches etc.  No point in reinventing the wheel if a site exists with all the details.  Perhaps they should be on this site ?  We have Makers - limited and keyboard layouts, also limited.  What about a History section with full details of every maker and model ?  The Hohner section alone would be very large.
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Theo

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Re: Melodeon History Sites ?
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2008, 02:44:53 PM »

Hi Martin

That is a great idea, but unlikely to happen unless someone (you?) volunteers to take it on.  It could turn out to be a big task, and would require continual maintenance as makers change what they offer.  But if you are up for doing it you will be helping a lot of people.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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triskel

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Re: Melodeon History Sites ?
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2008, 03:30:11 PM »

Martin,

The Hohner section alone would be ginormous! (Considering all the different models they've built in their own right since they started making accordions in 1903, and all their sub-brands, and ones made specially for distributors.) It's mind-boggling...  :o

However, I've been collecting old catalogues (pre-1955) for a while now, and can put a fairly accurate date on many of the older models, whilst for dating features of some of the more recent ones, I'd recommend taking a look at this thread on ReyesAccordions.com: Hohner Corona old/new style

Martin J

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Re: Melodeon History Sites ?
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2008, 04:28:29 PM »

Wow, no wonder I've had limited success in tracking down certain models.  Your link (triskel) is mind blowing in the detail changes that go on over the years.

My immediate reaction to Theo's confidence is that such a project would need to be automated in a database.  Whilst I can help with specifying the fields structure and links I am no programmer.  I'm sure we have members who are and can recommend a framework which would house such a project.  I believe this forum is a similar tool, ie. an off the shelf forum tailorable to the users need.  My apologies if it is a one off application.

My view is that an instrument database would need to be along the lines of Wikipedia allowing members and manufactures to update and advise of models/marks etc.  Having never used Wikipedia I believe the concept is good but the implementation can lead to serious errors if news reports are anything to go by.  Within Melodeon.net errors may well be caught rapidly and corrected.

Along with other members I could immediately fill in the details of my own instruments.  This would get the database off to an amazing start.  I too have old catalogues going back to the 80's and an odd pamphlet from the 50's.  Once the database reaches 'critical mass' manufacturers will be keen to ensure that are fully and correctly represented.  All great stuff for research etc.

Still, there may already be such a resource.  Over the next few days maybe someone will give a URL or build on the idea that is hatching here.

At a very primitive level a word processor could be used with a page per item and a very large index.  Programmers please throw your hands up in horror and put me right.
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Sebastian

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Re: Melodeon History Sites ?
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2008, 05:12:42 PM »

At a very primitive level a word processor could be used with a page per item and a very large index.  Programmers please throw your hands up in horror and put me right.

It is easy to implement a database with a web front end. That could be done on a weekend. But first you have to determine, what you want to put in the records: Manufacturer, years of production, minor variants, antecessor, successor model, pictures, ...

After the structure is defined, it is easy to realise it, using for example MySQL and PHP.

Amicalmen,

Sebastian

PS: I would prefer not to have to transform word processor documents... ;)
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Bill the Farmer

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Re: Melodeon History Sites ?
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2008, 06:25:56 PM »

That sort of thing would be extremely useful. I've just bought a Hohner Club 1B
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Bill of Old Shoreham Town

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Re: Melodeon History Sites ?
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2008, 06:39:30 PM »

 Same style 11B Victoria is approx 320x310x190 mm and weighs in just under 4 kilo
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Bill the Farmer

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Re: Melodeon History Sites ?
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2008, 09:09:30 PM »

Just like that! Thank you.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 10:05:54 AM by Bill Farmer »
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Bill of Old Shoreham Town

Itu

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Re: Melodeon History Sites ?
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2008, 09:20:50 PM »

I don't know if this is what you are looking for, but this website lists many makers. It seems that it was taken from other people's pre-existing lists, but giving them credit as to where the information came from. It might be woth checking out. http://www.accordionlinks.com/manufacturer.cfm#manufacturers-parts
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Kiwi

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Re: Melodeon History Sites ?
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2008, 08:18:54 AM »

You may glean some model history from Canadian, Ray LaForest.
http://raymond.antonakos.ca/Accordion_History.htm.
He has attempted a history of the accordion/melodeon on his site.
He has a collection of about 250 accordions, photographed and dated.
You may not agree entirely with his identifications but his life and playing
career make a good read. A site well worth a look at.

John
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Theo

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Re: Melodeon History Sites ?
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2008, 11:01:44 PM »

My view is that an instrument database would need to be along the lines of Wikipedia allowing members and manufactures to update and advise of models/marks etc.  Having never used Wikipedia I believe the concept is good but the implementation can lead to serious errors if news reports are anything to go by.  Within Melodeon.net errors may well be caught rapidly and corrected.

There are plenty of free scripts to do the job such as mediawiki that are fairly simple to set up if you have a server with php and mySQL.  You would then have your own "mini-wikipedia" which you could load with the information on makers and their products. Its much more flexible that way than constructing a bare database and choosing the required fields, setting up searches etc.  and could be installed in much less that a weekend.

But the big but is the huge amount of time it would take to collect and enter all the details.  As I asked before - do you want to volunteer to do the research? 
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Sebastian

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Re: Melodeon History Sites ?
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2008, 08:03:23 AM »

You would then have your own "mini-wikipedia" which you could load with the information on makers and their products. Its much more flexible that way than constructing a bare database and choosing the required fields, setting up searches etc.  and could be installed in much less that a weekend.

Yes. (Well, of course technically a wiki is just a database.)

On the other hand it is difficult to structure the content of a wiki and to search for specific attributes.

But the big but is the huge amount of time it would take to collect and enter all the details.

Yes.  :)

Sebastian
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Martin J

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Re: Melodeon History Sites ?
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2008, 04:13:11 PM »

Hi Theo and Sebastian

I'll respond to Sebastian first if I may.  I'm not a techi so; do I understand correctly that a 'wiki' is perhaps not the best vehicle to house an historic database ?  And secondly, I take your yes as agreeing with Theo regarding the amount of time.

This brings me to the non techi question of about 'wiki'.   I thought the information was entered by the visitors.  I envisage that if Bill had asked his question then 'Shytalk' could have entered everything he/she knew about the model, starting a new record if it didn't already exist and then let Bill know the database had been updated.  The record would have been in the Hohner section under Club and then the various marks and types of that instrument.  This way the database becomes self generating.

I'm not dodging your question Theo but at this stage am trying to establish the size of the problem and the time commitment required which you have indicated will be a lot.  I would be naive to jump in with my limited knowledge of the methodology.

Back to Sebastian.  My first thought was a simple flat database where virtually the only search criteria was to be the make and model, once you reached that record the various marks and history for that instrument would be within the record.  Is this over simplistic ?  What would people really like to search for ?  Perhaps other members will respond with what they feel is the basic criteria for an historic database and what use they would get from it, indeed is it even wanted ?  Manufacturers, if you read this site, what would you want ?

I realise that maybe a survey would be needed before building something useful but right now polling opinions should identify if it's worth pursuing or if it's just a pipe dream.
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Theo

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Re: Melodeon History Sites ?
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2008, 05:22:15 PM »

Martin

I think its definitely worth pursuing the idea.  But to give a small example of the amount of detail needed:

In 2004 Hohner published a list in their book "History Unfolds", published to celebrate their 100th anniversary of box production.  It lists approximately 450 models, and its incomplete!  It does include piano accordions too, but even so it gives you an idea of the order of magnitude.  Another complicating factor with Hohner is that they produced many variants of each model, and in many cases used different names for what is essentially the same model, and also used the same name for completely different models!  For example I have a Hohner  "Mein Leibling" which is an identical model to the Preciosa, just to add to the fun their is also a Hohner harmonica named Preciosa.  "Picoletta" was used as the name of an early Club model in the 1920s/30s and also for a small piano accordion in the 1950s/60s.

Then there are all the Saxony makers who between them used dozens of brand and model names, including models produced and branded with the name of a shop.  And then there are the Italian, Swiss, Austrian, Estonian, Finnish, French, US etc etc makers

As I said I don't to put you or anyone off taking this on, but its best to know what you are getting into.  To have a reasonable chance of success I believe this needs to be a collaborative project, and using a Wiki gives the tools to do that.  It could even be done as a topic within Wikipedia.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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triskel

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Re: Melodeon History Sites ?
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2008, 07:05:17 PM »

It lists approximately 450 models, and its incomplete!

Theo,

I'm afraid I'd go further, and say it's very incomplete.  :(

Quote
Then there are all the Saxony makers who between them used dozens of brand and model names, including models produced and branded with the name of a shop.

I'd suggest there have been at least many hundreds, and maybe thousands, of possibilities from Saxony, if you want to cover all the brand and model names.

I can give you a list of 59 makers from one corner of that region alone! And I don't believe anybody knows "all the makers that ever there were".

Like I said, it's mind-boggling...  :o

Sebastian

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Re: Melodeon History Sites ?
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2008, 08:38:13 AM »

There is no contradiction between "wiki" and "database". A database is just the technic behind the wiki front-end. A wiki is just a set of database + web front-end. Everything in a wiki is stored in a database.

Yes, I believe the "wiki aproach" is very helpfull: everybody can change and add information in a simple, straight forward way. But maybe it would be helpfull too, to specialise the normal wiki layout, so that there is not one big page, but different fields for "maker", "brand", "year(s) of production" &c.

While a normal wiki setup enables great freedom in presentation and organisation of a single record, it may have limitations in structured searching. How, for example, will it be possible in a wiki to generate an overview of the temporal progression of the models of a specific maker? Or of the models, a specific maker offered in a specific space of time? Or, if only concrete, palpable instruments are included, it would be interesting, to generate a statistical overview of the chronological distribution of these instruments. Etc. pp.

But maybe those statistical overviews may not be needed. ;)

Nevertheless, the technical questions are not essential. I agree with Theo that the real problem is the data to feed the system with.

Amicalmen

Sebastian
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Martin J

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Re: Melodeon History Sites ?
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2008, 12:01:30 AM »


Field                            Type of Field
   
Record ID                Numeric   
Manufacturer                General   
Model Name                General   
Model Mark                General   
First Made                Date   
Last Made                Date   
Associated marks                General   ie. Other brandings
No of Treble Buttons   Numeric   
No of rows                General   
No of treble reeds                Numeric   
No of treble registers   Numeric   
No of bass Buttons                Numeric   
No of bass reeds                Numeric   
No of bass registers   Numeric   
Type of reeds                General   ie. Tipo mano etc
Original Tuning                General   ie. Swing, Tremolo etc
Case                             General   ie. Wood. perloid etc
Height                             Numeric   
Width                             Numeric   
Depth                             Numeric   
Weight                             Numeric   
Picture Field for 6 images

(Bugger, still can't make a table work - I may have better luck with a relational database)

The associated brands field may be able to hyperlink to any mentioned model within it.   There should probably also be fields to identify sources, last update, who verified etc but I think simple is possibly best.

Once a format can be agreed then some of our computer literate members can probably advise the implementation and how on earth in can run within Melodeon.net ?

Sebastian, you are way over my head - temporal places are where I go to enjoy pre prandial cocktails without being baked by the Sahara sun and my reed wax melting.  But, have I misunderstood the last item 'data to feed the system with'.  Surely this comes from the members as an ongoing living and growing database as people add their combined knowledge.  One person couldn't possible feed in all the data gleaned from members, it has to be automated.  Perhaps liaison with a major manufacturer such as Hohner would dictate the database fields so that information from them could be directly dropped in ??

Thanks everyone for the input, I'm still hopeful.  I understand your point Theo regarding the Hohner book but publishers are limited by the number of pages an able bodied person can reasonably be expected to lift, world pulp production and the amount of coin they can extract for their efforts whereas a cyberspace book can be fairly limitless.  As to the multiple use of the same name I have many times found myself looking at mouth organs and melodicas having searched for a box so a cunning algorithm will be called for at the construction stage to minimise confussion.

Lastly, Rome wasn't built in a day but they didn't have an on line forum or Theo as the foreman ! :)
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Sebastian

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Re: Melodeon History Sites ?
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2008, 08:00:28 AM »

Field                            Type of Field

Nice list. It would be possible to add any number of pictures, so it has not to be restricted to six.

I would want to add a possibility for "notes/remarks".

Sebastian, you are way over my head - temporal places are where I go to enjoy pre prandial cocktails without being baked by the Sahara sun and my reed wax melting.  But, have I misunderstood the last item 'data to feed the system with'.  Surely this comes from the members as an ongoing living and growing database as people add their combined knowledge.  One person couldn't possible feed in all the data gleaned from members, it has to be automated.

Sorry, for the past 25 years I hoped my English would improve -- but I'm still hopefull. ;D

Yes, you are right of course. The appearance should be wiki-like, so that everybody may add and correct the content.

Amicalmen

Sebastian
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Matthew B

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Re: Melodeon History Sites ?
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2008, 02:05:23 PM »

It would be interesting to add a field (or perhaps a suggestion for the comments field?) that records the tradition for which the instrument was designed, and the tradition(s) in which it is commonly used, or the best guess of the contributor in these categories.  That would allow for some interesting cross-tabulation between, say, the 1.5 rows used by the organetto folks, the 1.5 rows used by the American Irish folks, and the 1.5 rows just rolled out by the Quebec folks.
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Martin J

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Re: Melodeon History Sites ?
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2008, 04:16:07 PM »

Thanks Mathew, I certainly would have liked to know all of that a few weeks ago having just taken delivery of fantastic Giustozzi 1.5 row but I am now very disappointed with the heavy Italian musette which I will have re tuned to be sweeter to my ear.  This is the first box I have ever bought unheard.  I had listened on Youtube but mine is in G and growls at the low end.  It's no reflection on Giustozzi, the box is first class.

I will certainly add your fields to the database along with a remarks field as suggested by Sebastian.

I'll wait for a little more feedback before compiling a new fields list.

Q for Theo.  You suggested it may even be a topic for Wikipedia.  Can you see anyway in could be an integral part of Melodeon.net ?
I am undecided on which is best.  Melodeon.net members will be very careful over accuracy and it would only be members who could update whereas in the open sea of Wikipedia the wide band of knowledge may be offset by 'I think I know brigade' and the malicious.  (I don't know how the site is protected from rubbish entries)  I feel it will be a valuable resource by the members for the members which outsiders are welcome to view but not alter without joining and being known to you in some way.
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