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Author Topic: How to do an Irish 'roll'  (Read 11413 times)

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Gromit

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Re: How to do an Irish 'roll'
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2011, 11:27:43 AM »

Thanks Steve and Mory that was interesting - perhaps you can enlighten me on cuts.

When I play a cut on the flute it's usually between two repeated notes ie two G's and I'd cut with the A (GaG)- if you are whistle players it's the same, this is the way I'm playing on the B/C box and would keep the G button pressed down while flicking the A sharp on the outside row.
But from what I read in Damien Connolly's tutor a cut or grace note is played BEFORE the main note ie. gracing A you quickly play B before playing the A. What I'm doing is playing similar to the way I would on a flute/whistle which kind of sounds better to me but may not be correct for the box - any thoughts?

Thanks

John
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 01:25:56 PM by Gromit »
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mory

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Re: How to do an Irish 'roll'
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2011, 12:09:22 PM »

Hi Gromit thanks and that's not to leave LDBosca out after all he's the one in Ireland  (:)

here's a bit from Uillian piping terms   Cut (i) An old term for a single gracenote; (ii) to reduce the length of a note in a way not easily described by conventional music notation - for example, the cut note in a strathspey, normally rendered as a semiquaver, is described as cut and the resulting note is much shorter.

I think both types, as you describe, cutting with a lower note I know as the tip or tipping, is that not the scots snap? and cutting with a higher note, for me usually same direction note above, but lots of choices, a really quick flash of the higher note indistinguishable for tone before the note being cut, I tend to use this more on the concertina with my box its usually more of a short roll but pretty much the same effect although I make an effort to try and play them as a cut in airs as they have a clean soulfulness to them. the effect is a sort of dla. Ive noticed some concertina players seem to use something like a combo of a roll/triplet and a cut by keeping the note being cut on and cutting over it ie, play C and hit the E quickly while still sounding the C its like a triplet with the C constant and the E cutting into the middle of it.
Be nice if Steve and Luke come in and share their thoughts and of course any body else All the Best mory
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LDbosca

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Re: How to do an Irish 'roll'
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2011, 01:36:08 PM »

Hi John,
Both types of cut that you mention are used frequently and considered correct, that is having a single grace note before the note or using a grace note in between two notes (such as two Gs) to separate. If you are doing the second type then you should always lift the melody note for the split second when you play the cut.

If you're cutting a G then presumably you're cutting it with the B on the outside row? The A# would be on the pull so I don't think that'd be practical.

Mory, I've heard that lower grace note ornament called a tip too. I always thought the scots-snap referred to anytime you have a semiquaver-quaver pair in a tune, but I'm sure a Scottish person would be better qualified to answer that.

Just for the record, this is the standard set of Irish ornaments for box playing (no notes should be held while the grace notes are sounded):

Cut on single note: BG

Cut between two notes: GBG

Tip: GF#G

Roll (5-note): GBGF#G

Short roll: BGF#G

Triplet: DF# ED, A C# BA etc.

One button triplet (not everyone does or approves of this one but that's another day's work): D DDD


There are various permutations but that's more or less the standard set.

Gromit

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Re: How to do an Irish 'roll'
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2011, 01:42:52 PM »

Thanks Mory (and also to Luke)

The concertina - combo of a roll/triplet and a cut but holding down the "main" note (C in your example) is pretty much how I'm trying to develop my long rolls - sounds a bit better to me than what I'm getting when I lift my finger from the main note, but as I'm a relative (self taught) beginner on the box I don't want to go picking up bad habits that are hard to get out of - I learnt that from my early days of flute playing.

John

PM sent re Camden

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Stiamh

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Re: How to do an Irish 'roll'
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2011, 01:58:24 PM »

I tend to use fiddle & whistle terminology, too, since I took up the box after decades of playing those instruments.

I'm glad to learn there is a standard set of terms for the box, Luke, but I think there's plenty of evidence to suggest that not every player or teacher uses it!

In Peter Browne's video he uses the term cut to describe a semitone "slide" into a note from outer row to inner, e.g. F#G

I would never call what Sharon Shannon does a "cran" since it sounds nothing like a piper's cran. It is akin to a fiddler's "treble" and that is a handy term to use, IMO, since "triplet" can mean several things.


One button triplet (not everyone does or approves of this one but that's another day's work): D DDD

This seems to need clarification. I think what Luke is describing is not what I referred to as a treble above. Examples of that would be:

FA (3AAA BAFA|dfed BcdA|  (more properly written FA A/A/A in ABC)
eA  A/A/A ABcd|eaae gedg|

etc.

What Luke is talking about seems to be a substitute for a long roll where you start the note and then "treble" it. Very similar to all those DF#DD things mory and I were talking about, except with everything on the same button.

In fact, even if not everyone approves, you can hear some nice examples of this device on Luke's myspace page, Queen of the Fair set, second tune, first part. Or am I mistaken, Luke?  (:)

Gromit

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Re: How to do an Irish 'roll'
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2011, 02:02:23 PM »

Thanks Luke

- yes got my draws in a twist there it should have been cutting the G with a B not an A sharp.

"no notes should be held while the grace notes are sounded"

Thanks for the advice because that's what I was doing

John
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mory

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Re: How to do an Irish 'roll'
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2011, 02:06:44 PM »

Hi Gromit it wasn't really a suggestion more an observation/point of interest. If I may make a suggestion it would be to follow Lukes post, its all there to be had. The seperation of fingering/notes that really charecterises the 4/5 note roll is paramount, practice slow concise movements they will pick up speed all on their own, finger off at the same time as finger on I think explains it, but slow, real slow, when you have it and it picks up speed go back and slow slow slow it down. if you can play a familiar tune with the required embellishments real slow with every thing sounding right, you know with a bit of a lilt to it, then it will all be in place for the next race, (I mean session)  the beauty of the BC is you can pretty much play all the fiddle rolls with the same notes as the fiddle , we will have to get Luke to put up some teaching posts. AtB mory

 ps. No PM in my in box?

sorry for any cross over with posts

Collins English Dictionary definition of "Scotch Snap" - "a rhythmic pattern consisting of a short note followed by a long one
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 02:28:29 PM by mory »
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Gromit

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Re: How to do an Irish 'roll'
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2011, 02:30:07 PM »

Thanks Mory
This is all great stuff and confirmation that I'm doing it wrong! excellent - yes I understand slow, real slow been through all that previously with the flute.

Oh yes I'll be back in a few years asking about basses (:)

John
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 02:31:50 PM by Gromit »
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LDbosca

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Re: How to do an Irish 'roll'
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2011, 06:06:06 PM »

I'm glad to learn there is a standard set of terms for the box, Luke, but I think there's plenty of evidence to suggest that not every player or teacher uses it!

In Peter Browne's video he uses the term cut to describe a semitone "slide" into a note from outer row to inner, e.g. F#G


One button triplet (not everyone does or approves of this one but that's another day's work): D DDD

In fact, even if not everyone approves, you can hear some nice examples of this device on Luke's myspace page, Queen of the Fair set, second tune, first part. Or am I mistaken, Luke?  (:)


Ha, hence my desire to get those recordings down, they're pretty rough and I don't do my 5-note rolls well in them either. All sorts of things wrong with them. Maybe I should alter my signature...

Those terms are nearly universal, I'd say Peter uses the term to describe the slide in due to the fact that that particular move, (F#G), is a relatively new development and so doesn't have a term. Some people would say not to use it at all, I'd say maybe very occasionally.

Mory, I hadn't thought about doing teaching videos, maybe in the future...unfortunately I think the tutor market's been covered so I can probably rule out making any money off it! Thanks for the words of approval/support.

Keithypete.

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Re: How to do an Irish 'roll'
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2011, 11:06:57 AM »

 This is a fascinating thread. I may be missing something fundamental though. If a crotchet has the 'roll' symbol above it, in a reel for example, the five notes fit into the space where the single note was - if I've understood things correctly.

 An observation regarding rolls, and the Irish style generally, often the rolls and other ornamentation seem to give the impression of speed when the tempo is moderate. This is probably what people refer to as 'busy'. My playing often sounds soooooooooooo English, like morris even, as I'm just playing plain melody with very few ornamentations, save for a little twiddle here and there, so the advice given here is very helpful. Thanks all.
 I love the playing of Joe Burke - the other players are mighty fine too.
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Beltuna Sara II - B/C flavour.
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PRIMATONA IV, B/C.

Stiamh

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Re: How to do an Irish 'roll'
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2011, 12:35:04 PM »

A "long roll" covers the space of three quavers. On flute, fiddle etc. you can compress the five components of the long roll into the space of a crotchet: That is, I suppose, a scrunched-up long roll.

I don't know but I wouldn't think many box players attempt that.... maybe someone else can confirm that.

Now, there are also "short rolls" in the fiddling and fluting world - covering a crotchet. The usual way of executing a roll in the space of a crotchet on flute or fiddle is to omit the first note: instead of G{A}G{F#}G, you play {A}G{F#}G, starting the note with the grace. I think that box players would tend to play G{F#}G or G{B}G instead.

Now, very often when you see a roll symbol above a crotchet it's in a context like BE ~E2, and the way that most fiddlers - and box players I would say - execute that is BE {F#}E{D}E. Most flute and fiddle players do not articulate after the BE part (that is, change bow direction or tongue/glottal stop), so they have the same amount of time to get all five notes in (three quavers), but the emphasis is shifted onto the off-beat.

Clear as mud, no doubt, but maybe it will be of some help.  ;)

wilfredsdad

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Re: How to do an Irish 'roll'
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2011, 06:26:25 PM »

Again - thank you all - very useful and helpful advice.
Thank you Luke for the clear descriptions of each type of 'roll' (also I enjoyed your playing on MySpace enormously - if you ever come down Bristol way to play please drop me mail - I'd love to come and hear you)
Also KeithyPete (sorry I don't know your name) - your comment about how ornaments can make playing at moderate speed sound much more interesting and lively I think is right on the nail - because I am a beginner I am focusing very hard on just trying to play the tunes accurately and sweetly with nice phrasing and I am not even thinking about speed (I am hoping speed will come naturally as I get better) - however I have found that (when I can pull it off) a simple grace note ('cut') or triplet just seems to help the tune so much.
Thanks to you all - I am sure that you all know that being a beginner on any musical instrument is a hard and lonely road (sob sob) so a little advice from people who have been there helps a great deal.
Thanks again, Pete
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