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Author Topic: Advantages/Disadvantages of thirdless chords  (Read 9922 times)

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Theo

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Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of thirdless chords
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2011, 10:27:17 PM »

I actually think that when it is harmonically possible it is much prefered to play WITH the thirds. (a dorian tune without the thirds is very often a lot more dull for example).

Me too.    I find the thirdless chords lacking in character.  I don't have a thrids stop either, so when the chord that I do have would clash, then I just play the bass note only.  Simples! ;D
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george garside

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Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of thirdless chords
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2011, 10:27:53 PM »

[quote author=Cooper link=topic=8194.msg101728#msg101728 date= played as well.

Without the thirds you have more options, yes, but those options arent that much broadened on a 2row8B. On a 3row-manybase, yes.

W
[/quote]

but my " 3 row- manybass " boxes have both major & minor chords available all the time without the need to pull ones knob out!

george ;D
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Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of thirdless chords
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2011, 10:35:38 PM »

Quote from: Cooper link=topic=8194.msg101728#msg101728 date= played as well.

Without the thirds you have more options, yes, but those options arent that much broadened on a 2row8B. On a 3row-manybase, yes.

W

but my " 3 row- manybass " boxes have both major & minor chords available all the time without the need to pull ones knob out!

george ;D

Yeah,... allthough i agree i thnk it would be more work for me getting that insrument played at a decent level than my 3r18b :-)
W
« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 10:39:24 PM by Cooper »
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IanD

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Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of thirdless chords
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2011, 11:01:36 PM »

For  the "21st century box a la Dedic", I've suggested a bass end stop that removes the thirds and replaces them with a doubled up fifth, but an octave away from the existing fifth instead of in unison. This should give the best of both worlds, assuming it's technically possible... :-)

(but is almost certainly impossible to retrofit to existing boxes because of the extra reeds and the sliding "swap stop")

To keep the chords sounding most similar in the two cases, this means the "normal" chord has the fifth as the lowest note, the root in the middle and the third as the highest one -- the stop then swaps out the third for the fifth above it.

Ian
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Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of thirdless chords
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2011, 07:56:06 AM »

I play with thirds out all the time too. Quite apart from the versatility that this gives, I dislike the sound of the full major triad on the l/h because of the equal-tempered tuning of the third. Very nasty sound to my ears. (Which you get on the r/h too of course but most of the harm is taken out of it if you have a bit of tremolo).

I believe Theo softens the sound of the bass chords in boxes he tunes by "justifying" the thirds, which would be an improvement. But for playing Irish music thirds in would (for me) be far too constraining - Em, Am and Bm being very common keys, and even in 3-chord-trick D & G major tunes, I'd want the option of B, E and F# "minor" chords handy.

Theo

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Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of thirdless chords
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2011, 08:34:49 AM »

I believe Theo softens the sound of the bass chords in boxes he tunes by "justifying" the thirds, which would be an improvement. But for playing Irish music thirds in would (for me) be far too constraining - Em, Am and Bm being very common keys, and even in 3-chord-trick D & G major tunes, I'd want the option of B, E and F# "minor" chords handy.

Indeed I do,  but I don't go as far as having the thirds just tuned, that would clash with the ET tuned thirds on the right.

I don't play a great deal of Irish style material, but I can see that the ambiguty of thirdless chords would be a big advantage in that genre. 
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Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of thirdless chords
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2011, 09:06:29 AM »

It's nice to have the option of taking the thirds out on my Saltarelle...and I often switch depending on what tune I'm playing.

My hohner pressed wood has been set with just E/B thirds taken out.....I miss the Bmajor chord sometimes but I'm happy generally.

 (:)

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Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of thirdless chords
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2011, 09:30:19 AM »


@ Tyker,I'm still on volume 1! (And enjoying every minute of it!)
Cheers, Bob.

Just let people know , so am I , but the other 2 volumes make interesting reading .Sad or what .
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Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of thirdless chords
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2011, 09:35:46 AM »

Blimey!! Poor optimistic (deluded) fool that I am I was hoping for a consensus!!
Lots and lots to think about. One consideration is that I'm keeping my G/C 2 row 8 bass ,that has the full chords as I think of them (3rds in), so I could have the best of both options.
Thanks for all your input. I'm going to re-read it all then have a lie down!!
Cheers, Bob.
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Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of thirdless chords
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2011, 09:50:31 AM »

A consensus on melnet ?

I thought Bob Ellis would end the discussion with the second post in the thread which summarised the situation pretty well.

I prefer the sound of full chords, but on instruments that have a thirds stop I often (but not always, and for different reasons) find myself using it in the "thirds out" position.

I'm wondering if what I'd really like is stops that changed A and B between major and minor. Ideally separately.
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Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of thirdless chords
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2011, 10:54:54 AM »

Others with better theoretical knowledge than me will no doubt provide more academic/complex/detailed answers

I've cc's Anahata's idea to the 21st century box thread - why did no one else say that?

Agree that Bob got nearly all of it summed up in the 'folk' domain - though thanks for his invitation to sophistry  ;)  We're sort of repeating the 3 chord trick thread 'with extensions' here.  But as you extend chords (or play on more exotic scales = same thing) the thirds 'fight the tune' early. You don't even have to get as far as jazz scales ..

   http://chrisryall.net/tunes/plinn-chambre-bleue-milleret.mp3
   (my ISP has bollcked me for bandwidth violation on this one)

Recorded live in August, about 50 up dancing a plinn Kost ar C'Hord.  In the C# chord even the 5th note 'fights the tune' and you have to play simple bass  as per Theo's trick, and make any chords on the right hand.  I guess solo you could play a C#+G together but it doesn't 'voice' so well and few boxes have those notes same way.

Is this  still 'folk'?  Well it's a current Breton tune, John K was playing a tune on same D based scale when I met him in 1970 (albeit using concertina for chords).
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 11:57:21 AM by Chris Ryall »
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Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of thirdless chords
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2011, 11:15:52 AM »

  http://chrisryall.net/tunes/plinn-chambre-bleue-milleret.mp3
   (my ISP has bollcked me for bandwidth violation on this one)

Your ISP is pleased to report, after juggling some limits, that you've got plenty of bandwidth left for this month.
Anyway, if it works the way I think it does (i.e. calendar month) it will all reset tomorrow and you'll have the whole of November to see if you can break it again >:E  :|glug
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Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of thirdless chords
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2011, 12:13:13 PM »

Your ISP is pleased to report, after juggling some limits, that you've got plenty of bandwidth left for this month.  Anyway, if it works the way I think it does (i.e. calendar month) it will all reset tomorrow and you'll have the whole of November to see if you can break it again >:E  :|glug

Excellent, though AFAIR I did have to rob http://dollymay.com to get through  :-\   

I can add that treewind enterprises is a damn sight more flexible than demon internet, sorts such little problems using judgement instead of closing of your damn website (demon  >:E managed this twice as I simply 'moved house') and is more economical into the bargain. Well recommended.
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waltzman

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Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of thirdless chords
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2011, 12:19:55 PM »

I play with thirds out all the time too. Quite apart from the versatility that this gives, I dislike the sound of the full major triad on the l/h because of the equal-tempered tuning of the third. Very nasty sound to my ears. (Which you get on the r/h too of course but most of the harm is taken out of it if you have a bit of tremolo).

I believe Theo softens the sound of the bass chords in boxes he tunes by "justifying" the thirds, which would be an improvement. But for playing Irish music thirds in would (for me) be far too constraining - Em, Am and Bm being very common keys, and even in 3-chord-trick D & G major tunes, I'd want the option of B, E and F# "minor" chords handy.

If the chord reeds are not well tuned and especially if that major third interval is a bit wider than it should be even for equal-tempered tuning then the chords with the thirds don't sound good at all.  I suspect this is the reason why a lot of people with stops for the thirds prefer playing without the thirds.  Having the chord reeds well tuned and the thirds flattened a little makes a big difference.
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Nick Hudis

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Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of thirdless chords
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2011, 12:46:06 PM »

To me it all comes down to the tune you are playing.  I play a lot without thirds, but some tunesS Staphane Deliqc's compositions for example sound odd without the thirds in the chords.
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Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of thirdless chords
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2011, 12:00:12 AM »

Call me square and old fashioned -- my wife does -- I prefer the thirds in and not having a bass-stop on my Nik hasn't bugged me in the least.  On the Saltarelle, the only time I find myself consistently pulling the thirds is for Breton tunes.
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Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of thirdless chords
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2011, 10:34:58 PM »

Update; Mike has recently developed a system to fit a stop to remove the thirds (what a clever chap!) and I've taken up the option for my Erika. I'm VERY excited about this box!! 3-4 weeks to go!! Bob
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Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of thirdless chords
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2011, 10:39:42 PM »

Update; Mike has recently developed a system to fit a stop to remove the thirds (what a clever chap!) and I've taken up the option for my Erika. I'm VERY excited about this box!! 3-4 weeks to go!! Bob

Oooh. Oooh ooh oooh ooh oooohhh!  ;D
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Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of thirdless chords
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2011, 10:47:10 PM »

I had the IrishDancemaster put the switch in my compact box. Works well and if I have the need for full triads, I can change back.

 :||:
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Re: Advantages/Disadvantages of thirdless chords
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2011, 09:09:50 AM »

When Mike Rowbotham did a wonderful rebuild of my old Erica last month he took out the the thirds and doubled the fifths and I love it ! It's my main Morris box and I think the sound is much improved with a lovely 'stompy' bass sound. I took it to a session in a small pub last week but it was too loud. Mind you I also took my trombone !
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