Topic: What key/mode? (Read 5904 times)

Chris Brimley · « **Reply #20 on:** November 08, 2011, 02:56:09 PM »

Sorry, Chris, maybe you were referring to my first bit about Em7b5? If so, I'm just not sure whether the nomenclature convention is that the flat 5 is added to the Emi chord (as I had thought), or substitutes the B natural - if the former, agreed it's not nice, the latter is sweet.

Chris Brimley · « **Reply #21 on:** November 08, 2011, 03:11:08 PM »

Quote

Its probably best to think of it as D harmonic minor, with the G# in the B music as chromatic ornaments utilising a non mode note, but not signalling a shift to a different mode

Yes, I see, Nick - because otherwise the unsharpened G's in the previous and next bars would be non-mode notes?

Chris Ryall · « **Reply #22 on:** November 08, 2011, 03:50:52 PM »

Just to emhasise The G# bit and the language - this is not modal music as it contains a dominant chord (A7), which is the "why" of the G# C#

The 'classic Greek modes'" refer to diatonic (eg G row, D row) scales. The only diatonic mode with a dominant is G (A7) or D(A7) major respectively. And then only if you express the full 4 note D7/A7 (which melodeons don't have)

Dm^harm is one part of 'tonal' music - a vast field that includes Vivaldi, Mozart, Souza, Gilespie, Stockhausen ..

.. but not Miles Davis, or a lot of our Western folk idiom.

[edit]Sorry - been playing in A all weekend - as suggested below G#/Ab would a blue/passing note in these scales.

Chris Brimley · « **Reply #23 on:** November 08, 2011, 04:44:58 PM »

I have to say I'm now pretty confused as to the role of 'modes' in understanding this piece of music, as Bob's original query. Several contributions have sought to explain it in terms of 'modes', but now are we saying it's not 'modal' in structure at all?

And are you saying that accompanying chords for a classic mode should include only the notes in that mode, Chris?

Bob Ellis · « **Reply #24 on:** November 08, 2011, 05:07:53 PM »

I am as confused as Chris B...if not more so!

Chris Ryall · « **Reply #25 on:** November 08, 2011, 05:28:43 PM »

It's not me - it is the general language that is overlapping and frankly confusing. It does however all make sense in context

'modes' originally applied to the major diatonic scale. It has 7 notes, you start where you like = 7 modes
Then came harmony in approx 14th century. They found a C# in the Dm scale gave nice progression
But it isn't on the diatonic scale any more .. it's nowadays called 'tonal' music
The melodic minor followed along, mainly from jazz. There are others. Yes, players mix them up
This music is then 'tonal' - not 'modal' in the original sense (unless we slip th odd Em in for fun)

Separately it has been discovered/theorised that you can start any scale on any note. Actually the Balkans and Yidish did this by instinct. Sadly these get called modes too, but they ain't Greek and they ain't diatonic.

The Greek modes have massive application in folk music - but just not in this particular tune. So why go through all this suffering? Well it helps you pick the correct chords - who'd have though of diminished on there otherwise? And should you arrange, improvise or simply twiddle - they underly the 'allowed' and 'unsuitable' notes.

Need to get home and actually play this, now we've got the dots.

Anahata · « **Reply #26 on:** November 08, 2011, 06:58:03 PM »

Before anyone gets too wound up about this - modes are just an attempt to put labels on something that can't always be categorised. A tune doesn't have to conform to any of those definitions.

This one's a good example: apart from modes, there's the fact that the B music has an odd mixture of F naturals and F sharps. I suspect, as this tune is Swedish, that it's in "old" tuning where the actual note pitch is somewhere in between, and the sharpness/flatness of the 3rd of the scale is different in one octave from the other. For more information, read the descriptive blurb here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMNZmBEysbQ and click on "show more" under the video. Mats Edén surely knows what he's talking about, and it's a lovely piece of box playing anyway.

Ollie · « **Reply #27 on:** November 08, 2011, 09:02:53 PM »

Just because there's an accidental, it doesn't mean there's a change of key. The G#s, as Nick says, are only chromatic notes used as decoration. It's in D harmonic minor. It might just be me, but I don't quite understand what all the fuss is about...

Chris Brimley · « **Reply #28 on:** November 08, 2011, 09:24:14 PM »

You see, I have a hunch that there's an underlying message in this - music doesn't actually fall into neat categorisations, and the ear recognises no such boundaries. I've always thought it somewhat unlikely that all the early traditional folk singers innately knew about modes, and unconsciously wrote all their tunes in just one 'mode' at a time, as some early English folk music research seemed to suggest. Yes, we probably do hear things in modes to some extent, but this is descriptive, not prescriptive. What is really nice about this tune IMO is just that - it starts off sounding like a familiar run of notes, but then it goes off somewhere completely new and surprising. I don't hear that G# as just an accidental, it feels to me like the tune has gone into a new phase somehow. That's what makes it clever, I think.

Chris Ryall · « **Reply #29 on:** November 09, 2011, 07:03:05 AM »

Quote from: Chris Brimley on November 08, 2011, 04:44:58 PM

And are you saying that accompanying chords for a classic mode should include only the notes in that mode, Chris?

More or less that's the underlying method. 7 note scale has 7 chords. The basic "mode chords" are then made using alternate notes. So in a Dm "modal": chord 1 = D¹ E F³ G A⁵ B(b) C⁷ = Dm7

We're a bit off topic here but the B/Bb choice depends on whether the mode has come from C scale or F scale. However as B(b) is "out" of your chord, it doesn't matter

D_dorian and D_aeolian both run delightfully against Dm(7).

Ollie's right too - "it's in D harmonic minor" - put up with it!

Apply the same chord constructor .. DFAC#

= Dminor^maj7. Similarly III, V and VII chords also get C#s. That's where those augmented and diminisheds come from. It's why it's important not to force this tune against the "3 minor chord trick" we'd use for Greensleeves - you'll get friction!

..( and why that B push chord on left end of a D/G is "major")

waldoB · « **Reply #30 on:** November 09, 2011, 07:25:48 AM »

Mel Bay's ' Master Accordion Scale Book ' is very useful. Although written for PA, with fingering, it has written out in full, over one or two octaves all Major, Minor(s) scales with jazz, pentantonic, blues, Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixlodyian & Aeolian modes, plus not so useful for us diminished scales. All in one handy slim volume. There's always more, but to have these readily available saves much effort writing it all out yourself

Chris Ryall · « **Reply #31 on:** November 09, 2011, 08:09:18 AM »

Was looking for a source to comp against on't internet and found this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfKrHVR7VDM It shows how the dance is done (3'18") which "should

affect one's play"

This video is really good source for several other Swedish dances. eg there is a section in the middle where they cut from Swedish polska to fayre and waltz in quick succession. All complete with harmonium

Then comes a nice "D minor" (to my ear) nyckelharpa Farmors Brodpolska (7'35"). Tantalisingly this one plays "major" bottom half and "minor" top half. Chords (m'thinks) are D major + Eb major

[edit] http://chrisryall.net/music/scottis.havero.mp3 now has uploaded "harmonic" riff

|: Dm - | Dm - | Gm, Em^7b5 | C#dim, A7 :|
| Dm - | Dm - | A7, A^maj | A7, Dm |
| Dm - | Dm - | A7, A^maj | F^aug, Dm |

The tune is a "mandonator" version on youtube (can't play and rt hand chord at once). Apologies if balance of speaker v box is off in places. His rhythm is "a bit different" too but it's just to hear the chords. There are lots of other posiblilities. I didn't personally like the Bb chord in this one, but couldn't resist the F⁺ just before the end.

Chris Brimley · « **Reply #32 on:** November 09, 2011, 09:45:37 AM »

All a bit straightjacket for my taste, Chris, I'm afraid. Some people will want to stick strictly to an original, others will want to develop it to include other influences, and I guess I'm mostly in the second group. I'm not saying the first group are wrong, but I don't feel they should prescribe - it's in the nature of folk music to develop in this way, isn't it?

(Edit: This comment does not refer to the chords above, which Chris added after my posting.)

Chris Brimley · « **Reply #33 on:** November 09, 2011, 10:24:54 AM »

On the suggested chords you've now added Chris, yep, also sound good to me (though did you mean the A7 for bar 8 to be a Dm?) Gives the piece a sort of 'classical' sound.

Chris Ryall · « **Reply #34 on:** November 09, 2011, 10:25:39 AM »

Pull a D one row with all right fingers engaged .. C#^7b5 chord! (but I know what you mean)

[edit] Chris B: I played A7 first time through, You're quite right, it's Dm second time. Both work - "tension/resolution".

Bob Ellis · « **Reply #35 on:** November 09, 2011, 01:16:28 PM »

Before reading Chris's post I had worked out my own simple bass line that goes:

|: Dm Dm | Dm A | Dm F | Em A | Dm Dm | Dm A | Dm F | A Dm :|

|: Dm Dm | Dm F | A A | C Dm | Dm Dm | Dm F | A A | Dm Dm :|

I shall go back through it and see what use I can make of the Gm, C#^dim, F^aug and Em^7b5. Am I correct in thinking that Em^7b5 is an Em⁷ chord with a flattened fifth (i.e. E, G, Bb, D)?

Chris Ryall · « **Reply #36 on:** November 09, 2011, 01:43:59 PM »

Bob, I thought you were comping within a group and didn't have to play melody? You can't do a lot of these chords on the left end- in particular a tritone 'dominant' interval isn't (mathematically) possible there. Yes, Em^7b5 is as you say, but you can interchange this with the diminished (or even Gm) more or less at whim.

What works depends what notes you have to (right) hand. Often 3/4 of these chords is enough so long as the 'colour' notes are included, and as ever with our instrument, the ear hears notes that aren't there.

Bob Ellis · « **Reply #37 on:** November 09, 2011, 02:07:06 PM »

No, Chris, I'm playing melody primarily with the French group. There are others who are providing the main bass accompaniment (e.g. rhythm and bass guitarists), but I am learning the tunes with a bass line so that I can also play them in other contexts.

On the main melodeon I am playing, I have all the notes as fundamentals at the bass end and all except C# and G# as neutral bass chords (i.e. no thirds). When you add this to having most notes in both directions at the melody end, I am fairly flexible as to the bass accompaniment I choose to play and I am seeking to be a bit more imaginative in this respect than I have been in the past.

William · « **Reply #38 on:** November 14, 2011, 11:46:24 AM »

Dulce et decorum est scientia, but only when one has it. I have an ancient copy the ‘Academic manual of the Rudiments of Music’ (published in 1949) but it makes my head ache or sends me to sleep.

I’d love to know what people are talking about when they refer to an augmented 6th, perfect 1st, inversions and so on.

I have two questions I suppose, to ask the heros and respected sages, if they’d be kind enough to respond.

1. Is it worth knowing this kind of thing?
2. If it is- could you recommend a web site of booklet for dummies which would help me here?

Thanks, Guys.

Theo · « **Reply #39 on:** November 14, 2011, 11:55:16 AM »

Quote from: William on November 14, 2011, 11:46:24 AM

1. Is it worth knowing this kind of thing?

It is not at all essential, but some find it helpful, but it is only one path towards making music that sounds good.
There are printed books available (remember them?) with titles like "The Rudiments of Music" which will take you step by step through music theory.

Wikipedia also has a section on Rudiments of Music

News:

Author Topic: What key/mode? (Read 5904 times)