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Author Topic: Tight top notes - what to do?  (Read 3547 times)

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wilfredsdad

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Tight top notes - what to do?
« on: November 21, 2011, 12:02:41 AM »

Hello - I am a beginner on melodeon but I feel I am making reasonable progress. I am learning B+C melodeon - mainly Irish tunes at the moment, and I am very much a devotee of the Sharon Shannon school of playing (dry tuning, light, delicate and articulate playing). I have just purchased a Sandpiper box and overall I am very pleased with it. However, I am becoming aware of what I think is possibly a common problem with a lot of boxes and I wonder if there are any tips for getting round it - namely: tight top reeds. I find on my box I have to push/pull the top (unvalved?) reeds pretty hard to get them to speak, and when they do speak they are pretty quiet and a bit squeaky. I think the reeds are set properly (I don't get a little puff of air sound before the reed speaks and they are in tune). I understand that the top reeds will always be quiet because they simply are smaller and you 'can't change the laws of physics' but I am wondering if there is anything that I can do to help minimise the problem. What is particularly diffiicult is that because I find I have to push/pull the reeds much harder it causes the box to jump about much more when I change bellows direction - this makes life difficult. I have a couple of thoughts on the matter and I would appreciate any info and opinions.
1)Have the top reeds tuned with a bit more tremolo - I think I am correct that this will make them seem a little louder?
2)I have seen discussion elsewhere on melodeon.net about the top reeds being put on 'upside down' - so that the tip of the reed is nearer to the source of the incoming air - sorry if I have got this not quite right but does anyone have any actual experience of this?
3)Have the top reeds replaced with really top quality handmade reeds?
4)The reeds will loosen up a bit with time and playing?
Any info, suggestions, observations would be much appreciated, regards Pete
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 03:54:25 PM by wilfredsdad »
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Stiamh

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Re: Tight top notes - what to do?
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2011, 03:30:39 AM »

If it is difficult to get the high reeds to speak, I don't know enough to say more than that you should get an opinion from an experienced repairperson. However...

What is particularly diffiicult is that because I find I have to push/pull the reeds much harder it causes the box to jump about much more when I change bellows direction - this makes life difficult.

... this sounds pretty extreme to me. You may need to improve your bellows technique: the box shouldn't be jumping about, even if you are applying more force. If you are resting the box on your knee, I suggest experimenting with keeping the front bottom edge of the bellows pretty well closed all the time, using this part of the bellows as a hinge. You might also find curving the front edges of the bellows away from you helpful (i.e. with the front edge making a concave shape). This is what many B/C and other Irish-style players do. This won't fix the problem with your reeds but it should allow you to push and pull hard without wobbling and jumping. Good luck!
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 03:33:17 AM by Steve Jones »
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wilfredsdad

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Re: Tight top notes - what to do?
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2011, 12:22:02 AM »

Hello Steve - well - if I have understood you correctly - then what you suggested re the bellows angle does seem to have helped to reduce  (but not entirely eliminate) the jumping about problem. The best way to descibe how I have interpreted what you suggest is to say that the bellows are rather like a book sitting open flat on my lap (spine, front and back cover facing down - as if I was reading the book) and when I open the bellows it is analogous to slowly flipping a number of pages over - does that make sense and is it more or less what you meant? Either way - moving the bellows in that way (effectively the back of my left hand faces more and more downwards as the bellows open) does seem to have reduced the treble side of the box being pulled and pushed side to side as I open and close the bellows - so thanks for your advice.
When I am practising I try hard to play quietly and smoothly - and I try to stay relaxed. Certainly, when I do manage to achieve that gentle relaxed movement of the bellows (particularly when making quick reversals for one or two notes) then my playing is much better.
Have not yet solved the problem of the tight top notes though - I am hoping for some suggestions from experienced people here (hint hint).
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Stiamh

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Re: Tight top notes - what to do?
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2011, 02:16:47 AM »

That is almost what I meant, Pete. But the open book analogy doesn't quite work: it misses the concave curve of the top front edge. A book (at least a hardback) can only open in one direction, like the hinge on a door, whereas bellows can open with several "hinge" points. As my bellows open the back of my hand is moving away from me forwards as well as outwards.

This creates the illusion - people sometimes comment on this - that the bellows are scarcely moving. In fact there's a bit more movement happening at the back, which people don't see.

There are all kinds of ways of operating the bellows of course and a lot depends on how much you use the basses. But at least when you aren't using the basses, and even to some extent when you are, you need to keep the bellows on a tight rein, with constant adjustments using the air button. This will help the jumping issue.

There are any number of possible reasons for the tight reeds issue - I would have expected somebody knowledgeable to chime in by now.

Cheers
S

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Re: Tight top notes - what to do?
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2011, 05:34:30 AM »

Well, in the absence of someone knowledgeable, I'll say a few words ...

I bought a new Sandpiper (in D/G tuning) in June and I also noticed the 'tight top notes' which seem to correspond to those reeds without valves. An experienced box tuner had a look at it and felt it was fairly typical of a new box, and the valve issue was a furphy [trans. "an erroneous assumption"] ;)

Anyway I'm persevering in the hope that as the bellows etc loosen up the high reeds will speak more easily. I was gently reminded that the Sandpiper is a fairly cheap box and shouldn't be expected to match the playability of the top-quality Italian models. To be fair, I love the quick response and tone of the lower treble reeds. Staccato triplets can sound nice and crisp, even better than on some much more expensive boxes I've tried. And some session comrades apparently prefer the Sandpiper's sound to my old swing-tuned Baffetti BPII.

Straying off topic: does your bass slider cut out the thirds cleanly? On mine the slider manufacture was botched and stray off-notes sound when the slider is pulled up to cut out the thirds in the bass chords. I suppose I'll have to see someone in Shanghai to get it sorted out.

cheers, Ian
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Theo

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Re: Tight top notes - what to do?
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2011, 07:53:45 AM »

I find on my box I have to push/pull the top (unvalved?) reeds pretty hard to get them to speak, and when they do speak they are pretty quiet and a bit squeaky.

1)Have the top reeds tuned with a bit more tremolo - I think I am correct that this will make them seem a little louder?
2)I have seen discussion elsewhere on melodeon.net about the top reeds being put on 'upside down' - so that the tip of the reed is nearer to the source of the incoming air - sorry if I have got this not quite right but does anyone have any actual experience of this?
3)Have the top reeds replaced with really top quality handmade reeds?
4)The reeds will loosen up a bit with time and playing?

Quick response, especially on the high notes is something you are more likely to get with good quality reeds.   It also depends on how the reeds have been installed and set up, and on the design of the reedblocks and the rest of the air path.   Valves are not fitted to the highest reeds because they play better without valves. High notes usually work better when the reed chamber volume is small, so you often find the top two or three reed chambers partially filled with a slip of wood, or with wax, (or with putty in old Hohners). 
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Re: Tight top notes - what to do?
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2011, 08:23:38 AM »

does your bass slider cut out the thirds cleanly? On mine the slider manufacture was botched and stray off-notes sound when the slider is pulled up to cut out the thirds in the bass chords. I suppose I'll have to see someone in Shanghai to get it sorted out.
It could be because the stop knob has been screwed in a little too far/not far enough, so that when it is operated, there is still a small gap in the alignment of the internal ports when they should be completely closed. If you open up the box and remove the chords reed block, you should see the underneath slider and it should become obvious how it works. You can adjust the amount of travel on the slider simply by screwing the stop knob in or out a fraction. Sometimes the knob gets rotated accidentally (usually by curious fingers not knowing the consequences of doing so!) and the ports become misaligned.
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wilfredsdad

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Re: Tight top notes - what to do?
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2011, 09:18:14 PM »

Thank you everybody for your comments so far.
Steve - yes I am clearer now regarding what you are saying about bellows movement - effectively the bass end of the bellows has to tip both down and out (away from you) as the bellows are opened and visa versa when the bellows are closed. I watched Damien Mullane on youTube and Sharon Shannon and indeed there did seem to be that type of movement going on. Tried it myself and I can feel that with practice it is certainly going to help.
Also the bellows on my new Sandpiper are becoming less stiff - so I think that is going to help too.
Ian my bass thirds uncoupler works fine - 'have to say though that at the moment I just don't use the bass side of the instrument much (leaving that tussle for later).
Theo - thank you for the info about the reeds and reed boxes. Just can't get my head around how two different notes (push/pull) can be under the same button if no valves are present. As regards better quality reeds: it seems to be a minefield - bottom line is you just don't really know what you are buying; my Sandpiper has 'Italian' reeds in it and indeed they are stamped Cagnoni - but what does that mean - Chinese Italian? - if I went for TAM reeds for the topmost reeds would they really be any better than what I have got? the whole thing with reeds (and melodeons for that matter) is just shrouded under layers of marketing blurb and it makes life very difficult. Would I be able to obtain genuinely top quality reeds just for the highest notes on my box - would it, do you think, be worth the hassle and the investment? What do you think of the proposal of having just a little more 'swing' put on the highest notes just to 'thicken' the sound a bit? Again thanks to all for your comments - kind regards Pete
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 09:24:18 PM by wilfredsdad »
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Lester

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Re: Tight top notes - what to do?
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2011, 09:31:24 PM »

Cagnoni reeds are genuine Italian reeds from Italy.
Their advertising puff says:

In 1946, Mr. Cagnoni, with his wealth of experience, intuition and insight, founded his business to which he was to devote the next sixty years and more of his life with tireless passion and competence.

The values that have always been a characteristic of the founder have been handed down to his heirs who, in complete respect of tradition, have given a greater boost to the family business, bringing technological innovation, advanced engineering and a dynamic commercial approach.

Cagnoni reeds for accordions is today an international point of reference on the accordion market and is well able to meet the requirements of even the most demanding customers.

Theo

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Re: Tight top notes - what to do?
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2011, 09:43:18 PM »

As Lester says Cagnoni are a long established Italian reed maker.  Like the other big makers they produce the full range of quality of reeds. 

I'd be doubtful if it would be worth replacing the high reeds, but it would be worth getting them looked at by an experienced reed tech.   If you bought it new from The Music Room you should talk to them first.  It would also be worth getting an experienced player to play your box and tell you if they thought the top reeds out of balance with the rest.

BTW as a beginner you are doing well if you are playing up at the dusty end on a DG, keep it up!
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tedrick

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Re: Tight top notes - what to do?
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2011, 09:48:48 PM »

Hi Pete -
I'm thinking give your box more time -
the reeds are just breaking in - after a year of playing the box will sound better - I have noticed this on all the boxes I've played - the sound changes over time the more you play the box -

record yourself playing now and then compare it 6 months later - I'll bet you sound better after 6 months!

Reed
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Re: Tight top notes - what to do?
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2011, 03:06:07 AM »

does your bass slider cut out the thirds cleanly? On mine the slider manufacture was botched and stray off-notes sound when the slider is pulled up to cut out the thirds in the bass chords. I suppose I'll have to see someone in Shanghai to get it sorted out.
It could be because the stop knob has been screwed in a little too far/not far enough, so that when it is operated, there is still a small gap in the alignment of the internal ports when they should be completely closed. If you open up the box and remove the chords reed block, you should see the underneath slider and it should become obvious how it works. You can adjust the amount of travel on the slider simply by screwing the stop knob in or out a fraction. Sometimes the knob gets rotated accidentally (usually by curious fingers not knowing the consequences of doing so!) and the ports become misaligned.

Steve, my techie friend tried adjusting the stop knob to the nth degree and found yet another reed would sound when the original 'odd' reed had been successfully blocked off. So it seems the positioning of the holes on the thirds slider was poorly made. And there's a wooden block glued to the slider that prevents it being removed from the box without damaging the plywood slider. I'm in Australia and can't get over to the Music Room again in the near future.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Tight top notes - what to do?
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2011, 09:28:03 AM »

Steve, my techie friend tried adjusting the stop knob to the nth degree and found yet another reed would sound when the original 'odd' reed had been successfully blocked off. So it seems the positioning of the holes on the thirds slider was poorly made. And there's a wooden block glued to the slider that prevents it being removed from the box without damaging the plywood slider. I'm in Australia and can't get over to the Music Room again in the near future.
Oh dear, that's tricky then, not to mention very annoying.  :(
If you remove both the reed block and the stop knob, is it possible to remove the wooden block/slider assembly from inside the instrument? If so, it might be feasible to rebuild the slider assembly using a new piece of thin ply. Otherwise, it is almost certainly a case of contacting the Music Room to see if they will replace or repair the instrument for you at their expense.
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tedrick

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Re: Tight top notes - what to do?
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2011, 07:04:26 PM »

Tim Edey likes the Sand Piper -
from his soundcloud feed:



Music room demo bc air reel jig
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smiley

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Re: Tight top notes - what to do?
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2011, 09:46:00 PM »


Oh dear, that's tricky then, not to mention very annoying.  :(


I'm happy with the basses having thirds anyway
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Stiamh

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Re: Tight top notes - what to do?
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2011, 11:30:07 PM »

Tim Edey likes the Sand Piper -
from his soundcloud feed:



Music room demo bc air reel jig


Yeah, but do you think this is really an independent opinion? Or is it advertising in the form of celebrity endorsement?

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Re: Tight top notes - what to do?
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2011, 11:52:37 PM »

It would also depend on which Sandpiper,  in their printed catalogue from this summer there were Sandpiper models ranging up to nearly £2000 IIRC.

I have tried one, and while very good for the money the keyboard was set with one row of buttons set with much longer travel than the other.
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Re: Tight top notes - what to do?
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2011, 06:46:41 PM »

Reference the Tim Edey Soundcloud: If only buying a Sandpiper or any other box could make me sound like that, I would do it. I am sure he could make a box of rocks sound great. Charlie
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