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Author Topic: Dedic tuning - what is it?  (Read 11017 times)

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IanD

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Re: Dedic tuning - what is it?
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2012, 11:44:17 PM »

What pgroff said is exactly correct -- you're trading off slightly worse fifths for considerably better thirds, which doesn't make sense if you don't have thirds :-)

We've all got used to the horrible thirds in ET through familiarity and don't really notice them until they're compared to a non-ET tuning.

But the point is that to play with other instruments nowadays ET is the only real option; there's no point having an instrument that sounds more in-tune than ET when played solo but way out-of-tune when played in an ensemble.

In theory violin players could adjust to any temperament, but after many years of learning to play "in-tune" (or as "in-tune" as ET gets) I doubt that many could do it in practice...
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Re: Dedic tuning - what is it?
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2012, 12:21:35 AM »

Mmmmm . . . . thank you all very much - very informative and interesting. I think the take home message I'm getting from this is:-
1)ET is the best compromise (despite it's shortcomings) if I want to be able to play with other instruments (which ultimately I do) - and that is of course why it has been adopted.
2)Double check that the tuning of each individual reed really is exact to ET and that I am not being mislead by the shortcomings of the tuner display.
3)Trust my ears and - provided that what I have is reasonably 'in tune' - concentrate on learning to play better and not get hung up on technicalities (?)
4)If it really doesn't sound good - get another pint down!
Thank you all - I'm bowing out now, Pete
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Owen Woods

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Re: Dedic tuning - what is it?
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2012, 01:12:58 AM »

I hate mathematics so much. Why does it not work? >:( >:( >:(
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Stiamh

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Re: Dedic tuning - what is it?
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2012, 12:05:30 PM »

It seems mildly ironic to me that some on this forum are interested in 1/4 comma meantone as a temperament for D/G melodeons, while another trend seen on melnet is that many are advocating thirdless "chords" on the bass side.  I find these two trends ironic because 1/4 comma meantone drastically compromises all the useable perfect fifth intervals, narrowing them around 3.4 cents from ET (equal temperament) and around 5.4 cents from an acoustically perfect fifth -- in order to keep the major third intervals acoustically pure (around 13.7 cents narrower than the harsh, wide, major thirds of ET)!

I don't see the irony, Paul. The point of having thirdless chords is quite unconnected with any liking or disliking of ET thirds - or any species of thirds for that matter. It's to allow chords to function as major or minor. Of course you know this, but I fear your comments risk creating unnecessary fog in the minds of members - and there have been some - who may be unsure of why thirdless chords are advocated.

As a fiddle player, I am used to having a certain leeway with the pitch of various intervals, thirds in particular, and I love sweet natural thirds and dislike harsh ET thirds as a result. As you know, I toyed with the idea of an alternative temperament for my C#/D - you gave me useful advice on the matter. But even if I had some kind of alternative tuning that magically gave me thirds that I liked, I'd still want thirdless chords on the left hand.

I think it's worth pointing out that the need for straying from ET in the quest for sweet thirds is much more acute for concertinas, with their single voices, than on accordions with more than one voice, where there is practically always some degree of tremolo. ET thirds sound peculiarly harsh on free reed instruments with a single voice - much harsher to my ear than on piano or violin. Many tinas seem to have a particulary strident tone that seems to accentuate this harshness.

Anyone who has r/h stops controlling their MM voices can easily test this. With only one voice sounding, a r/h chord of tonic plus major third sounds quite horrible. Bringing in one or more other M voices and the tremolo softens the effect and in fact takes nearly all the harm out of the sound.

This knowledge is enough to reconcile me with ET tuning and its benefits for the time being, even if some form of old-Irish-fiddle-sound-friendly tuning remains a ideal, no doubt never to be realized because of the limitations that would come with it on a fixed-pitch instrument like the box, especially a semitone box with its wider range of feasible keys to play in.

@ukebert - I hear you about maths. I like to refer to the Pythagorean comma (the incompatibility between perfect fifths and perfect octaves) as God's mistake.

Owen Woods

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Re: Dedic tuning - what is it?
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2012, 12:27:18 PM »

God's biggest mistake you mean!

Should I be worried that should I accept the existence of an interventionist deity who created the world, I would regard that as his biggest mistake?
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IanD

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Re: Dedic tuning - what is it?
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2012, 12:47:28 PM »

I hate mathematics so much. Why does it not work? >:( >:( >:(

So maybe all we have to do is persuade everyone in the world to switch to a 19-interval octave and all would be well -- of course we'd have to throw away all our horrible old melodeons and get new ones with separate sharps and flats, but surely this would be a price worth paying to get purer thirds?

Ian >:E
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Ollie

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Re: Dedic tuning - what is it?
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2012, 12:59:19 PM »

God's biggest mistake you mean!

Should I be worried that should I accept the existence of an interventionist deity who created the world, I would regard that as his biggest mistake?

A question for Al, methinks...
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pgroff

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Re: Dedic tuning - what is it?
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2012, 04:16:46 PM »

In response to Steve (Jones),

Yes, the two trends I mentioned are definitely responding to two different goals of melodeon players.  But I still find it ironic that some players are working to improve their melodeons by compromising the fifths more than in ET, to get those sweet, acoustically pure major thirds, while some players are giving up on those thirds altogether (on the preconstructed harmony or "triad" [sic] buttons), leaving just the open fifth intervals.  What would be most ironic of all would be to tune the whole melodeon to 1/4 comma MT and then block off the thirds, leaving the chord buttons to play only the rough narrow fifths.  Indeed, there actually could be good reasons for setting up your instrument that last way, depending on how you will use it . . . but still ironic IMO.

Personally, when I'm using a lot of open fifth harmonies and few if any thirds, ET is an excellent compromise tuning.

But other temperaments (and approaches to just tuning) come into their own when harmonies in thirds (and their inversions and extensions) are important in the music.

Most of us are used to hearing very bad thirds as Ian mentioned.  But hearing harmony with very good thirds can be addictive!  

The theoretical clash between instruments tuned differently (such as a cajun-tuned accordion played with an ET-tuned guitar, or a 1/4 comma MT accordion played with other instruments tuned in ET) is not always musically offensive in practice.  Co-tuning of multiple instruments is always a compromise.  Furthermore (as Steve implies) when we tune 2 or more voices of an accordion in any way but dry we are demonstrating that tuning discrepancies can have a positive musical effect.  It's all how the musician uses it.  And obsessiveness over evenness, perfection, or standardization in tuning (while important for certain approaches to music making by some musicians) is not IMO a prerequisite for great music . . . witness the exuberantly effective music that can come out of garage bands, European folk brass bands, honky-tonk pianos, traditional styles of group singing, and many other examples of complex but wonderfully inexact  human sounds.

Anyway, I personally like to leave the thirds in the triads of a melodeon.  I know the bass side will never be as versatile as the accompaniment I can make on a piano or a guitar, so I enjoy it sounding like a traditional melodeon -- and I love the traditionally sweet-tuned thirds of those melodeon chords.  I like the melody side of accordions tuned in many ways.  But I especially like to see all the creative and personal ideas, modifications, and playing effects that melodeon players have used, including the variety discussed in this thread.  I wouldn't ever say that any of them are "wrong," just that sometimes I am moved when a particular tuning -- whether common, exotic, or innovative, and whether "exquisitely detailed" or "rough" -- is used in a really musical way.  IMO.

PG
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 04:36:19 PM by pgroff »
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Dedic tuning - what is it?
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2012, 07:54:02 PM »

Paul,

Many thanks for your interesting response which seems to me to be full of wisdom. It is quite refreshing to hear positive things being said for ET. Of the choices which you mention, I can say that on the RH side, sweet (if not beatless) fifths are more important to me aurally than sweet major thirds, which does rather rule out 1/4 comma MT for a 2 row D/G box. As for the LH side, I often play with thirds removed anyway.

My one-row four-stop boxes are tuned on the RH side with slightly flattened thirds and sevenths (both -5 cents from ET), but otherwise in ET. This seems to give me a sweet RH side (but not the Cajun whole hog) so East Anglian and Quebecois tunes sound just fine and not a bit strange as they would tend to do on a Cajun-tuned box. I assume this is a compromise tuning - a sort of well-temperament. What I really would like to do is to extend that well-tempered approach to a 2 row D/G box, so on the RH side I can retain the important sweet fifths and yet still have my thirds not sounding as rough as they do in ET.  

Quote
when we tune 2 or more voices of an accordion in any way but dry we are demonstrating that tuning discrepancies can have a positive musical effect.  It's all how the musician uses it.  And obsessiveness over evenness, perfection, or standardization in tuning (while important for certain approaches to music making by some musicians) is not IMO a prerequisite for great music . . . witness the exuberantly effective music that can come out of garage bands, European folk brass bands, honky-tonk pianos, traditional styles of group singing, and many other examples of complex but wonderfully inexact  human sounds.
This is brilliant! Thank you!
Steve
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Andy Simpson

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Re: Dedic tuning - what is it?
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2012, 10:24:00 PM »

Was it not Winston Churchill who said that ET is the very worst form of temperament, except for all the others that have been tried...
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waltzman

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Re: Dedic tuning - what is it?
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2012, 04:25:59 PM »

The sad thing is that most melodeons I've come across aren't in any sort of decent tuning.
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Theo

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Re: Dedic tuning - what is it?
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2012, 04:51:45 PM »

When did you last have yours tuned?
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Re: Dedic tuning - what is it?
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2012, 04:54:23 PM »

The sad thing is that most melodeons I've come across aren't in any sort of decent tuning.

 Most of the melodeons that have come my way have been mass produced, and of modest quality. I'm reasonably sure that these were tuned in a big hurry to an approximate level, acceptable for the mass market. I can't imagine that these boxes were given the time and effort that a good tuning requires in the factory. Even the Salterelle I bought new 10 years ago was terribly ET-ish. Also, the upper notes were not set well and barely played at all. Wish I had kept it though, I could deal with it now. :-[
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waltzman

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Re: Dedic tuning - what is it?
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2012, 05:01:52 PM »

When did you last have yours tuned?

Tuesday. ;D
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waltzman

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Re: Dedic tuning - what is it?
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2012, 05:07:50 PM »

The sad thing is that most melodeons I've come across aren't in any sort of decent tuning.

 Most of the melodeons that have come my way have been mass produced, and of modest quality. I'm reasonably sure that these were tuned in a big hurry to an approximate level, acceptable for the mass market. I can't imagine that these boxes were given the time and effort that a good tuning requires in the factory. Even the Salterelle I bought new 10 years ago was terribly ET-ish. Also, the upper notes were not set well and barely played at all. Wish I had kept it though, I could deal with it now. :-[

I've had several nice italian instruments on trial from the Button Box including Castagnaris and a Saltarelle and I felt all of them needed some tuning.
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Theo

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Re: Dedic tuning - what is it?
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2012, 05:15:22 PM »


I've had several nice italian instruments on trial from the Button Box including Castagnaris and a Saltarelle and I felt all of them needed some tuning.

I've had several fairly new Italian instruments in my workshop and have usually been able to make a significant improvement to the tuning and responsiveness.  Getting the reeds set right for quick response at low volumes is a particular issue with many new boxes.  This seems to be especially noticeable on top Saltarelles with a mano reeds.  I can't help wondering if they are set up by people more accustomed to working with cheaper reeds who aren't aware of how to get the best out of good reeds.
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Graham Spencer

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Re: Dedic tuning - what is it?
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2012, 05:56:36 PM »

The sad thing is that most melodeons I've come across aren't in any sort of decent tuning.

 Most of the melodeons that have come my way have been mass produced, and of modest quality. I'm reasonably sure that these were tuned in a big hurry to an approximate level, acceptable for the mass market. I can't imagine that these boxes were given the time and effort that a good tuning requires in the factory. Even the Salterelle I bought new 10 years ago was terribly ET-ish. Also, the upper notes were not set well and barely played at all. Wish I had kept it though, I could deal with it now. :-[

I bought my Saltarelle new many, many years ago and its tuning was C**P!!  The first thing I did with it was take it down to Nils Nilsson, who worked his magic on it and turned it into a very nice box indeed - so nice that I still play it regularly 20-odd years later. It's been tuned by a couple of other tuners since Nils ceased to be so active, but it's never regained that sparkle that he always put into it whenever it went back to him. Now, sadly, it's down to me - one of only 2 melodeon players I know of on the island of Cyprus - to wield the tuner & file......
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IanD

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Re: Dedic tuning - what is it?
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2012, 03:44:02 PM »


I've had several nice italian instruments on trial from the Button Box including Castagnaris and a Saltarelle and I felt all of them needed some tuning.

I've had several fairly new Italian instruments in my workshop and have usually been able to make a significant improvement to the tuning and responsiveness.  Getting the reeds set right for quick response at low volumes is a particular issue with many new boxes.  This seems to be especially noticeable on top Saltarelles with a mano reeds.  I can't help wondering if they are set up by people more accustomed to working with cheaper reeds who aren't aware of how to get the best out of good reeds.

When someone had a go on all my boxes recently they were struck by how my Oakwood sounded so consistent -- and good -- at all volume levels. I'm pretty sure this was also a touch of the Nils Nielsen magic, I know whenever I sent it to him for tuning it always just sounded and played so much *nicer* when it came back, even if there wasn't anything really wrong in the first place.

In contrast my new Baffetti Binci isn't like this at all in spite have having highly-rated Binci reeds :-(
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pgroff

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Re: Dedic tuning - what is it?
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2012, 04:49:15 PM »


I've had several nice italian instruments on trial . . .  and I felt all of them needed some tuning.

I've had several fairly new Italian instruments in my workshop and have usually been able to make a significant improvement to the tuning and responsiveness.  Getting the reeds set right for quick response at low volumes is a particular issue with many new boxes. . .  I can't help wondering if they are set up by people more accustomed to working with cheaper reeds who aren't aware of how to get the best out of good reeds.

When someone had a go on all my boxes recently they were struck by how my Oakwood sounded so consistent -- and good -- at all volume levels. I'm pretty sure this was also a touch of the Nils Nielsen magic, I know whenever I sent it to him for tuning it always just sounded and played so much *nicer* when it came back, even if there wasn't anything really wrong in the first place.

In contrast my new Baffetti Binci isn't like this at all in spite have having highly-rated Binci reeds :-(

Hi all,

Getting a box to really sparkle does take an extra input of time and special skill IMO.  I spent a good few hours watching and listening while Aldo Mencacini of Bell Accordion (NY state) worked his magic . . .  a very artistic craftsman!  But I also heard some folks grumble that his work was expensive.  Then, the "best" set-up for any box may differ from one player to another.  With all that in mind, when players choose to buy accordions that promise the "most listed features at the cheapest price," then perhaps  some makers and retailers may decide that to make the sale they must economize on the costly expense of labor needed for the best set-up and tuning.   

PG
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Re: Dedic tuning - what is it?
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2012, 08:47:58 PM »

Is it possible to dedic tune a 8´-16´setup?
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