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Author Topic: paddy o'brien's box  (Read 19664 times)

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sCANdanADIAN

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2008, 05:35:47 AM »

Would this be one of Paddy O'Brien's 78rpm recordings? He wasn't afraid to use his basses,I like that.
http://www.juneberry78s.com/sounds/Paddy%20O%27%20Brien%20-%20Spike%20Island%20Lassies.mp3

It's from the Juneberry site's Irish page http://www.juneberry78s.com/sounds/ListenToIrishDance.htm

Chris
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triskel

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2008, 01:20:04 PM »

Would this be one of Paddy O'Brien's 78rpm recordings? He wasn't afraid to use his basses,I like that.
http://www.juneberry78s.com/sounds/Paddy%20O%27%20Brien%20-%20Spike%20Island%20Lassies.mp3
Chris

Yes, there were only the three 78s issued and that track, the Spike Island Lassies/Dowd's Favourite was one of the sides. The others were O'Kelly's Fancy/Cuckoo Hornpipe; the Mason's apron/Paddy Murphy's Wife; the Lark on the Strand/Pipe on the Hob; the Trip to Athlone/Garrett Barry's Favourite and last, but by no means least (it's probably his most popular set) the Yellow Tinker/Sally Gardens. They were slavishly copied by "the young bucks" of Irish accordion playing in the late 1950s and the 1960s.

By the way, Paddy and Joe Cooley were old friends. Paddy had taken Joe's place in the Tulla Ceili Band in 1949 (when Joe went to London) and both emigrated to America in 1954. But before they left, the pair of them both entered the All-Ireland Championship, at the Fleadh in 1953. The judges had difficulty in deciding the winner between them but, after a recall, gave it to Paddy!

hibbs3

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2008, 02:57:45 PM »

Aparantley, from what a friend told me, Paul Groff has a red Paolo Soprani (2 voice model) he believes once belonged to Sonny Brogan. But I think someone said it was in F/Bb and with a stepped keyboard, so I'm not sure how accurate that statement is.
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triskel

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2008, 03:10:30 AM »

Those "pepperpot"-grille ones seem extremely rare, in fact I've never seen one in the flesh, but only photos of three examples, two of which have been dark red (and very much from the "grey" era) including this O'Byrne De Witt example ...

Joe was telling me that Paul Brock also has one of these "pepperpot" Paolo Sopranis, so that's three people I know who've got them, though I've never seen one - I'll have to put that right! But he agrees that they are very rare...

Well, I was visiting Charlie Harris on Wednesday and it turns out that I know four people who've got them, and I've now had a chance to take a quick look at one... However, as I pointed out to him, Charlie's was evidently originally built for the Continental market, not the Irish one, since it is a 21-key, 3-voice, 2-coupler, 12-bass box with slightly-stepped buttons, and the bass-end cover would remind me of the light-grey Paolos from around 1953-4.

hibbs3

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2008, 10:53:05 AM »

Did you mention the grey O'Byrne DeWitt to him?  ;D
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hibbs3

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2008, 01:41:10 AM »

he have any thoughts on what the tuning should be?
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triskel

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2008, 03:20:22 AM »

he have any thoughts on what the tuning should be?

Have a little patience, the answer is complicated and (at 3.20 in the morning here) it's long past my bedtime...

Edited for clarification

Pearse Rossa

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2016, 12:25:04 PM »

One thing I'll add - Paddy's R/H thumb technique certainly is intriguing...

Looks sort of deliberate, to avoid pressure/weight on the thumb joint, I'd hazard a guess. The box looks fairly well balanced/stable otherwise though, even with just the one strap... does anyone have any idea if Paddy makes a habit of this technique (either out of choice or necessity)?
Ed J
Paddy had to adapt to this peculiar thumb technique as a result of an accident.
On his Paolo there is a supporting block attached behind the keyboard.
I played his box and I have to say it didn't exactly blow my skirt up.
I found it too bulky.

Having said that, he plays it beautifully himself and I am a fan of his.
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pgroff

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2016, 12:33:58 PM »

Aparantley, from what a friend told me, Paul Groff has a red Paolo Soprani (2 voice model) he believes once belonged to Sonny Brogan. But I think someone said it was in F/Bb and with a stepped keyboard, so I'm not sure how accurate that statement is.

Hi hibbs3,

I think that story may have been jumbled as it passed around. First, back at the time you wrote I did have a stepped keyboard 2-voice F/Bb Paolo (not the one I passed along to you, but an earlier type with bare metal grille). That early one found a new home as an A/Bb conversion.  However at that same time I also had a mid-century small-script red Paolo club with a body shape and grille and some other features very similar to the Sonny Brogan / Paddy O'Brien grey box.  Actually I've seen a couple more examples of that red club model recently also!  It was never owned by Sonny Brogan but when Charlie Harris inspected it in the Catskills he agreed that its features (wooden soundboard, switch behind grille, simple pattern of celluloid-covered grille, type of lever action etc) were in line with the Brogan box and that it was probably made in the same series.

PG

edited: sorry, there's a mistake above - I wrote "switch behind the grille" but meant to write "switch behind the keyboard."
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 09:08:34 AM by pgroff »
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Pearse Rossa

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2016, 12:59:04 AM »

Transferred across from the 'Manfrini' thread:

... you've already said (in the thread about Paddy's box) that "I played his box and I have to say it didn't exactly blow my skirt up. I found it too bulky"...

I also said he plays it beautifully himself. I wouldn't want anyone to get the impression that I was
casting aspersions on his instrument.
In comparison, Andrew MacNamara's Paolo, which is also a 1947 or '48 model and a 4-voice, is an incredible box to play.

... (Doesn't it have a sliding coupler on the back of the keyboard even, like the 1930's 4-voice ones?)

No sign of a switch on this one.
I have been told it's a 4-voice.
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Pearse Rossa

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2016, 03:43:38 AM »

....However at that same time I also had a mid-century small-script red Paolo club with a body shape and grille and some other features very similar to the Sonny Brogan / Paddy O'Brien grey box.  Actually I've seen a couple more examples of that red club model recently also!  It was never owned by Sonny Brogan but when Charlie Harris inspected it in the Catskills he agreed that its features (wooden soundboard, switch behind grille, simple pattern of celluloid-covered grille, type of lever action etc) were in line with the Brogan box and that it was probably made in the same series.

PG

I deduce from that account that Charlie considered the Brogan/O'Brien box to be mid-century?
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triskel

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2016, 03:50:39 AM »

In comparison, Andrew MacNamara's Paolo, which is also a 1947 or '48 model and a 4-voice, is an incredible box to play.

Now I, and others, would reckon Andrew's is a 1951-52 model, and they play more easily because they have a better keyboard than the late 1940's ones. My late friend Micilín Conlon had one the same, with known history - his D/D# was bought new for the Kilfenora Ceili Band in 1952, and played by Bobby Gardiner before he emigrated to America.

... (Doesn't it have a sliding coupler on the back of the keyboard even, like the 1930's 4-voice ones?)

No sign of a switch on this one.
I have been told it's a 4-voice.

You may have been told wrongly then. The only external difference between the 3-voice and 4-voice versions of those is the sliding coupler, on the back of the keyboard, but the 4-voice version is a lot less common than the 3-voice. But they are bulky and have sharp corners, the keyboard isn't great on them, and the sound isn't either - hence you can buy any number of them for less than €1,000...  :(

However, I do have a 4-voice Hohner C#/D, made about 1930, that doesn't have a coupler - which is both the oldest original C#/D box known, and also the only permanent 4-voice Irish accordion that anybody has seen.

triskel

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2016, 03:54:41 AM »

I deduce from that account that Charlie considered the Brogan/O'Brien box to be mid-century?

I'd ask him at our session on Saturday for you, but I happen to know he has a prior engagement this week.  ::)

triskel

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2016, 04:23:51 AM »

... (Doesn't it have a sliding coupler on the back of the keyboard even, like the 1930's 4-voice ones?)

No sign of a switch on this one.
I have been told it's a 4-voice.

Here's an older 4-voice Paolo Soprani, made about 1930, that I got Nielsen to convert from B/C to C#/D about 30 years ago:


And the sliding coupler on the back of its keyboard:


I've owned that box twice in the meantime.

triskel

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2016, 05:13:20 AM »

....However at that same time I also had a mid-century small-script red Paolo club with a body shape and grille and some other features very similar to the Sonny Brogan / Paddy O'Brien grey box.  Actually I've seen a couple more examples of that red club model recently also!  It was never owned by Sonny Brogan but when Charlie Harris inspected it in the Catskills he agreed that its features (wooden soundboard, switch behind grille, simple pattern of celluloid-covered grille, type of lever action etc) were in line with the Brogan box and that it was probably made in the same series.

PG

That'd be this one then:


It looks bulky, and the feet on it would remind me of the square 1930's ones too, before they started fairing them into the casework like the more usual "grey boxes".

Does Paddy O'Brien's one have those screwed-on feet too Pearse Rossa?

pgroff

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2016, 09:24:47 AM »

....However at that same time I also had a mid-century small-script red Paolo club with a body shape and grille and some other features very similar to the Sonny Brogan / Paddy O'Brien grey box.  Actually I've seen a couple more examples of that red club model recently also!  It was never owned by Sonny Brogan but when Charlie Harris inspected it in the Catskills he agreed that its features (wooden soundboard, switch behind grille, simple pattern of celluloid-covered grille, type of lever action etc) were in line with the Brogan box and that it was probably made in the same series.

PG

That'd be this one then:


It looks bulky, and the feet on it would remind me of the square 1930's ones too, before they started fairing them into the casework like the more usual "grey boxes".

Does Paddy O'Brien's one have those screwed-on feet too Pearse Rossa?

Hi triskel,

Sorry for a mistake in my comment that you quoted - I meant to write "switch behind the keyboard," not switch behind the grille, in describing the red club box. 

Yes, you found the photo of the one I meant. The bass buttons are replacements - the originals on this box were an unstable batch of celluloid that disintegrated.

I never knew whether this red box should be considered earlier, later, or contemporaneous with the typical late-40s grey boxes. However the grille design and rear-of-keyboard switch are reminiscent of the Brogan/O'Brien grey box. The red celluloid trim at first seemed to indicate a late box, but then I found examples of some early Paolo Piano boxes with that red trim. Maybe some early parts but finished later? The reedblocks and other internal features however look early to me. In any case, I've seen at least three examples of Paolos with that same red club body design; at least two of them are in Bb/Eb, and all are 12/11/7 in LMM, with metal mesh bellows straps, small script logo, rear-of-keyboard switch. It is a little bigger than Paddy's box I think and weighs around 5 kg (11 pounds).

I have seen Paddy's box close at hand and I'm pretty sure it has the feet integral with the body, like the more common grey boxes. But obviously the grille design is much different than a typical 1940s grey box.

PG

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pgroff

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #37 on: September 27, 2016, 09:45:10 AM »

....However at that same time I also had a mid-century small-script red Paolo club ...

PG

I deduce from that account that Charlie considered the Brogan/O'Brien box to be mid-century?

Hi Pearse Rossa,

No, that was my phrasing to indicate my own very imprecise estimate of dating - to me I'd say "mid-century" (with 20th century assumed from context) means 1950 give or take a decade.

But of course when some people talk about grey Paolos they get keenly interested in features that changed from year to year.

PG
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triskel

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2016, 04:45:15 PM »

Hi triskel,

Sorry for a mistake in my comment that you quoted - I meant to write "switch behind the keyboard," not switch behind the grille, in describing the red club box.


I assumed that must be what you meant Paul, a "switch behind the grille" wouldn't be very convenient...  ;)

Quote
The bass buttons are replacements - the originals on this box were an unstable batch of celluloid that disintegrated.

More likely they would have been casein.

Quote
I never knew whether this red box should be considered earlier, later, or contemporaneous with the typical late-40s grey boxes. However the grille design and rear-of-keyboard switch are reminiscent of the Brogan/O'Brien grey box. The red celluloid trim at first seemed to indicate a late box, but then I found examples of some early Paolo Piano boxes with that red trim. Maybe some early parts but finished later? The reedblocks and other internal features however look early to me. In any case, I've seen at least three examples of Paolos with that same red club body design; at least two of them are in Bb/Eb, and all are 12/11/7 in LMM, with metal mesh bellows straps, small script logo, rear-of-keyboard switch. ...

I have seen Paddy's box close at hand and I'm pretty sure it has the feet integral with the body, like the more common grey boxes. But obviously the grille design is much different than a typical 1940s grey box.

They're enigmas, but I'd be very interested to compare the grille on this Club, or on the Sonny Brogan/Paddy O'Brien box, with that on one of those bulky, square, dark grey boxes from the 1930s. I think the same tooling may have been used to produce them - they certainly look similar.

For that matter, I wonder how the reeds, reedblocks and actions would compare?

triskel

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2016, 04:54:00 PM »

But of course when some people talk about grey Paolos they get keenly interested in features that changed from year to year.

Red ones too Paul, though I've been known to say they're often different from batch to batch, never mind year to year...

But one thing's for certain, not ALL grey boxes could possibly have been made in 1947 or 1948!  ;)
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