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Author Topic: paddy o'brien's box  (Read 19666 times)

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pgroff

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2016, 05:42:04 PM »

Hi triskel,

Sorry for a mistake in my comment that you quoted - I meant to write "switch behind the keyboard," not switch behind the grille, in describing the red club box.


I assumed that must be what you meant Paul, a "switch behind the grille" wouldn't be very convenient...  ;)

Quote
The bass buttons are replacements - the originals on this box were an unstable batch of celluloid that disintegrated.

More likely they would have been casein.

Quote
I never knew whether this red box should be considered earlier, later, or contemporaneous with the typical late-40s grey boxes. However the grille design and rear-of-keyboard switch are reminiscent of the Brogan/O'Brien grey box. The red celluloid trim at first seemed to indicate a late box, but then I found examples of some early Paolo Piano boxes with that red trim. Maybe some early parts but finished later? The reedblocks and other internal features however look early to me. In any case, I've seen at least three examples of Paolos with that same red club body design; at least two of them are in Bb/Eb, and all are 12/11/7 in LMM, with metal mesh bellows straps, small script logo, rear-of-keyboard switch. ...

I have seen Paddy's box close at hand and I'm pretty sure it has the feet integral with the body, like the more common grey boxes. But obviously the grille design is much different than a typical 1940s grey box.

They're enigmas, but I'd be very interested to compare the grille on this Club, or on the Sonny Brogan/Paddy O'Brien box, with that on one of those bulky, square, dark grey boxes from the 1930s. I think the same tooling may have been used to produce them - they certainly look similar.

For that matter, I wonder how the reeds, reedblocks and actions would compare?

Hi Triskel,

I still have that red club box & as it happens I may have nabbed another of this model. Will post some internal pics when I get a chance.

PM me if you'd like a lead on the third example that I know about.

PG
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Pearse Rossa

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2016, 06:55:45 PM »


Does Paddy O'Brien's one have those screwed-on feet too Pearse Rossa?

I have seen Paddy's box close at hand and I'm pretty sure it has the feet integral with the body...

Correct. See this photo.

In comparison, Andrew MacNamara's Paolo, which is also a 1947 or '48 model and a 4-voice, is an incredible box to play.

Now I, and others, would reckon Andrew's is a 1951-52 model,...

I don't know for certain. I can only relate what Andrew himself has told me.

But one thing's for certain, not ALL grey boxes could possibly have been made in 1947 or 1948!  ;)

Is that a swipe at me? I wasn't suggesting that they were.
I wouldn't claim to have the encyclopedic knowledge that you evidently have but I don't lack enthusiasm for these boxes and I don't like being ridiculed either.
My contributions are given in earnest.

....However at that same time I also had a mid-century small-script red Paolo club ...

PG

I deduce from that account that Charlie considered the Brogan/O'Brien box to be mid-century?

Hi Pearse Rossa,

No, that was my phrasing to indicate my own very imprecise estimate of dating - to me I'd say "mid-century" (with 20th century assumed from context) means 1950 give or take a decade.


Thanks for the clarification.



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Lars

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2016, 08:42:54 PM »

But they are bulky and have sharp corners, the keyboard isn't great on them, and the sound isn't either - hence you can buy any number of them for less than €1,000...  :(

I quite like them. A friend of mine has one (3v), that sounds and plays great. Agreed that it's not as easy to play as a typical red or grey Paolo, but I think they have something to them. The one mentioned has been fully restored, and fitted with C#/D Binci Professional reeds, and I'm sure that helps:) I'm not sure it would be easy to play as a B/C (which I think a lot was tuned to), but as a C#/D it's not that hard to play. And the sound - pretty nice, with 16 cents of tremolo to either side. Still no match for a good grey box.

Is that a swipe at me? I wasn't suggesting that they were.
I wouldn't claim to have the encyclopedic knowledge that you evidently have but I don't lack enthusiasm for these boxes and I don't like being ridiculed either.

As a newcomer to the discussion, I don't see it as a swipe, Pearse, I hope you will continue to contribute to the wonderful world of old Paolo Sopranis. For the past 10 years or so I've been into old Paolos myself, having owned numerous and seen many more, and I've heard loads of different years mentioned for the same models. I think the best points of reference are the original recieps found with some boxes, or dated pictures of said models, along with original dated catalogs. I have a handful of interesting old boxes myself, and I sure wish they had dates of manufacture inside, but so far I can only date them based on catalogs, pictures and recieps. Still love them, regardless of age!:)
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triskel

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2016, 11:40:26 PM »



Does Paddy O'Brien's one have those screwed-on feet too Pearse Rossa?


I have seen Paddy's box close at hand and I'm pretty sure it has the feet integral with the body...

Correct. See this photo.

Ah thanks, I was wonderng if you remembered about that because it evidently has much else about it that appears to be the same as Paul's Club model. And you didn't reply to my question about whether it has a sliding coupler on the back of the keyboard yet? (Though I'm inferring that it does.)




In comparison, Andrew MacNamara's Paolo, which is also a 1947 or '48 model and a 4-voice, is an incredible box to play.

Now I, and others, would reckon Andrew's is a 1951-52 model,...

I don't know for certain. I can only relate what Andrew himself has told me.

Yes, and lots more people will tell you the same years, which seem to have pretty-much entered into the realms of Paolo Soprani mythology (along with the one about blue-badge Paolos being somehow better than red-badge ones too). And they can't be too far out in dating them so either - it's probably a good average that's less than a decade out either side, and who cares? (Knowing Andrew, I suspect he might be quite dismissive of such concerns.) But there are those amongst us with a fascination for working out the true chronology of these boxes, and production years for different models, and who actually made them, and what keys they were made in, so always comparing instruments and looking for documentary evidence, and sharing any evidence we may have access to since, like I said, "not ALL grey boxes could possibly have been made in 1947 or 1948!" (And how do blue badges somehow make a box better?  ;))

But it'll probably take a lot longer than my lifetime to try and sort out the complicated/confusing mess, and many questions may be unanswerable forevermore...  :(

triskel

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2016, 12:02:24 AM »

But they are bulky and have sharp corners, the keyboard isn't great on them, and the sound isn't either - hence you can buy any number of them for less than €1,000...  :(

I quite like them. A friend of mine has one (3v), that sounds and plays great. Agreed that it's not as easy to play as a typical red or grey Paolo, but I think they have something to them. The one mentioned has been fully restored, and fitted with C#/D Binci Professional reeds, and I'm sure that helps:) I'm not sure it would be easy to play as a B/C (which I think a lot was tuned to), but as a C#/D it's not that hard to play. And the sound - pretty nice, with 16 cents of tremolo to either side. Still no match for a good grey box.

Well there you go, and maybe the Bincis can transform one, but in Ireland you can get them for less than you might pay for a clean one from the late '70s these days (and we both know how "desireable" those are considered...  ::))

I can tell you this Paolo Soprani 1930's Button Accordion has been on sale for quite a while, and now "is reduced from €995 to €695"! And I know of others that are available too...

Pearse Rossa

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2016, 12:17:17 AM »

One thing I'll add - Paddy's R/H thumb technique certainly is intriguing...

Looks sort of deliberate, to avoid pressure/weight on the thumb joint, I'd hazard a guess. The box looks fairly well balanced/stable otherwise though, even with just the one strap... does anyone have any idea if Paddy makes a habit of this technique (either out of choice or necessity)?
Ed J
Paddy had to adapt to this peculiar thumb technique as a result of an accident.
On his Paolo there is a supporting block attached behind the keyboard.

This photo shows the modification to the keyboard.
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Pearse Rossa

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2016, 02:17:10 AM »

...you didn't reply to my question about whether it has a sliding coupler on the back of the keyboard yet? (Though I'm inferring that it does.)

I don't recall to be honest. I have looked at a lot of boxes!
I will have to start making notes.
I think it's safe to assume that there is a sliding coupler.

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pgroff

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2016, 03:31:46 AM »

I've played with Paddy but don't think I ever saw the coupler on his accordion -- but I wrote Paddy a few years ago asking him about the box and he confirmed that his grey box is four voice with a switch behind the keyboard.

There are a couple of different kinds of those  rear-of-keyboard switches* that you can find on Paolo Sopranis from that period so it would be interesting to see a photo.

I'll ask him for a photo or details, next time I see him.

PG

* here are the rear-of-keyboard switches from  a  LMMM  blue GC ca 1940s, and that red LMM club box.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 03:58:43 AM by pgroff »
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triskel

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2016, 04:48:05 AM »

....However at that same time I also had a mid-century small-script red Paolo club with a body shape and grille and some other features very similar to the Sonny Brogan / Paddy O'Brien grey box ... when Charlie Harris inspected it in the Catskills he agreed that its features (wooden soundboard, switch behind grille, simple pattern of celluloid-covered grille, type of lever action etc) were in line with the Brogan box and that it was probably made in the same series.

Hi triskel,

I never knew whether this red box should be considered earlier, later, or contemporaneous with the typical late-40s grey boxes. However the grille design and rear-of-keyboard switch are reminiscent of the Brogan/O'Brien grey box. The red celluloid trim at first seemed to indicate a late box, but then I found examples of some early Paolo Piano boxes with that red trim. Maybe some early parts but finished later? The reedblocks and other internal features however look early to me.
I have seen Paddy's box close at hand and I'm pretty sure it has the feet integral with the body, like the more common grey boxes. But obviously the grille design is much different than a typical 1940s grey box.

PG

Hi Paul,

Looking at Paolo Sopranis on eBay tonight, I stumbled on this very interesting (in our present context) piano accordion:


From what I can see, streamlined "modern" accordions, with slotted grilles, only started to appear in Scandalli advertisements (for their new high-end "Symphony", "Scott Wood 4-Special" and "Scott Wood 7 register" 1938 models), in October, November and December (respectively) of 1937. Thereafter anything else started to look old-fashioned and streamlining started to catch on with other makers (mainly in Italy and the United States) in 1938/39, so that I'd estimate this one was probably made between 1938 and 1942.

And intriguingly, both the design in the grille and the right-angled front corners of it, plus the lighter red piping alongside it and on the bellows frames, is very strongly reminiscent of your red Club model, which (as you've said yourself) is itself reminiscent of the Sonny Brogan/Paddy O'Brien box. So I'd reckon this confirms that those button boxes (being even more streamlined in shape) were almost certainly made not long after (or even contemporaneously with) this piano one, probably around 1939-42, like I was suggesting was a possibility earlier...

I see an Evolution at work here!

pgroff

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2016, 05:19:16 PM »

Here's a matched pair of those early (1940s?) Paolo clubs that somewhat resemble the Brogan / O'Brien B/C.

The one on the left I have already shown above. The melody buttons on that one are original, but the bass buttons have been replaced. Its original bass buttons had turned brown and crumbled away. I recently saw another example of this accordion for sale in Italy, also with crumbled bass buttons.

On the right in the pics below is yet another example. This one came to me with *all* the buttons replaced (with modern pearloid type). Possibly its bass buttons had crumbled too, and the owner replaced all the buttons so they would match.  Also a bit of the red trim is missing from that one.

PG
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pgroff

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #50 on: December 10, 2016, 05:23:05 PM »

Regarding the red trim, that's found on some of the naked-alu grille Paolo diatonics too.
First photo: Keyboard plate and buttons of this one unoriginal; it originally had a stepped board with stepped bare aluminum keyboard plate and screw-in mushroom shaped pearloid buttons. Grille and lever switch are original.
Second photo from a craigslist ad.

« Last Edit: December 10, 2016, 05:45:10 PM by pgroff »
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Michael Driscoll

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2016, 11:04:56 PM »

What about the "pepperbox" models? They came in various colours - but all seems to be from the "red era".

Those "pepperpot"-grille ones seem extremely rare, in fact I've never seen one in the flesh, but only photos of three examples, two of which have been dark red (and very much from the "grey" era) including this O'Byrne De Witt example:


Whilst "the other Paddy O'Brien" (from Nenagh) is playing a dark-coloured one in this American photo with Joe Cooley:


Quote
The box in the video looks interesting - the grill looks like the one of the late 30's (the square boxes just before they started the more rounded look) but still it curves towards the keyboard.

It's a different style of grille that you'd see only occasionally - Bobby Gardiner played a 2-coupler with an aluminium one of that style for many years:


edited Cooley/O'Brien photo
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Michael Driscoll

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #52 on: December 12, 2016, 11:14:08 PM »

The "Bobby Gardiner"type of accordion shown is like the one I have and I take this to be one of the later greys , early 50s I think. any further information would be appreciated on this model.
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triskel

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Re: paddy o'brien's box
« Reply #53 on: December 13, 2016, 04:06:43 AM »

The "Bobby Gardiner"type of accordion shown is like the one I have and I take this to be one of the later greys , early 50s I think. any further information would be appreciated on this model.

Yes, our knowledge and understanding of these old Paolo models has grown a lot since this thread started 8 years ago (and in the meantime I've acquired TWO "Pepperpot grille" models, when I hadn't even seen one in the flesh back then!), but the period from 1946-54 is a very complicated and confusing one, with a lot of the actual building contracted out and various dfferent models apparently being made pretty-much simultaneously - but I do reckon yours, and Bobby's old one, were probably made sometime between 1950 and 1954.
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