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[Ellie]

So an inclusive organisation whose real purpose was to advance the cause of Morris dancing could -- for example -- offer tutorial weekends for inexperienced forepeople to teach them these skills, aimed at various levels of competence and all dancing styles without looking down on or excluding anyone -- because everyone has to learn sometime. Or member teams with "associate status" (or whatever it's called) could be encouraged to have experienced teachers come along to their practices to help them improve.

As you say, I think this is where a central organisation is needed. To be honest, there's no reason why the JMO can't do some of the things suggested above, now. The Ring's Jigs Instructional is a fantastic event, and I've seen several dancers standards improve dramatically after attending just one weekend as a novice; whilst it's a great "lad's weekend away", I'd love to see this event opened up to all organisations, as I think it would be really beneficial.

Hear hear! I've been wishing for at least a year now that there was similar organisation of stuff from the Fed. Or the JMO. However, I can't help thinking (from my own, limited, experience), that there really is a difference between sides that are effectively social groups, and those that have a certain level of performance. Certainly I joined my second side in an attempt to get into the latter. But if they are all performing in public, what can you really do about the impression they (we?  ) give?

[pikey]

I understood it to be a mutual agreement. They took the decision to let women dance (out of necessity), and therefore could no longer be member of The Morris Ring - the national organisation for Men's Morris & Sword clubs; I assume they were aware of this when they took the decision. For what it's worth, the Ring were very, very sad to see them go.

Besides, it's only an organisation, and the main reason people are members of one of the three is for insurance purposes. Not being a member of the Morris Ring doesn't (or at least, shouldn't) change the outlook, style, feel or anything of the team. To be honest, the bit that's upset the tradition is the fact they've gone mixed, not the fact they've left the Ring.

The Plough Stots have had the occasional 'non male' dancer for many years, usually with their hair tucked up into the cap so you couldn't tell.   So they haven't 'gone mixed', to some extent they always were! And it never affected the outlook, style, feel , or anything. I think it was a pragmatic way to get a team up when they were a man or two down for a gig.

Maybe Goathland have sussed that you can be an associate of the Ring and get all of the benefits of full membership apart from voting (big deal....) and attending Ring Meetings (yawn....)

Note I'm not advocating mixed teams for the Morris Ring - I personally don't like mixed teams, but I don't consider Goathland to be in any way mixed.

BTW - I know of at least two thriving and well respected sides who have been in existence for over 35 years who have never been elected to the Morris Ring, but who have continued to uphold the traditions without all the pallaver of being invited to join the ring, getting a bit of wood that is meant to be a 'staff of office' , and toasting the Queen.....

Rant over  
Pikey

 

[Ollie]

A few corrections, Pikey...

1) Associate members can attend Ring Meetings
2) You're not invited to join the Ring - you have to apply.

With reference to the staff of office... I like it. I will be part of a side (hopefully) dancing into the Ring later this year. We will attend a weekend of dance, get to meet other sides and get to know them, then be able to display our dancing to the masses, before being formally welcomed into the organisation. We will be able to attend Ring events and generally join in with the wonderful fellowship that makes the Ring what it is.
I am also part of a side that joined the Open last year. We paid our money, our name and contacts got put on the website, and that was that. Apart from insurance, what's the point?

[Keithypete.]

 Of course there are really bad dancing sides in all 3 organisations. What really hacks me off is ANYONE banging on about dance standards who can't bloody well dance. I've seen Ring sides where the total combined height of all their capers wouldn't amount to the thickness of a single rizla paper. I'd like to see them caper at least as high as the pile of laurels on which they're resting!!!

 Is it any wonder that there WON'T be any morris dancing as part of the opening or closing ceremonies of the Olympic games?

[Ollie]

Is it any wonder that there WON'T be any morris dancing as part of the opening or closing ceremonies of the Olympic games?

Oh, something's gone wrong in the Morris world. I know, let's blame the Ring.

Grow up. 

[Lester]

My 2d worth

I am currently Squire and Foreman of a morris side that is known locally as a Care in Community side. We have the cast offs/failures from other sides and various waifs and strays. The standard of our dancing measured against Bacon's Book or whatever is poor but we are entertaining. The crowds seem to  really enjoy what we do, both the dancing and the après, tunes/songs. I for one really like it that way round I have seen sides that dance exquisite morris but are really boring. Most of the consumers/ crowd don't know/care what foot you should be on or which way you should be going but he want to see something that is fun to watch.

Ps we are a Ring Side 

[oread_uk]

I think it was pretty clear at last years JMO that the standard of dancing in all three organisations is variable.  Although when some of my non-morris friends have attended events, they are naturally attracted to the sides that look like they're enjoying what they're doing as they have no idea whether the dance is accurate- I'm not a great fan of watching Cotswold, yet I could watch Hammersmith or Berkshire Bedlam for many an hour - it's not just technique is it?  It's the energy and enthusiasm that goes into the performance.  You may have a side who are technically perfect, but who lack that 'ooomph'.  Who could judge that?

I dance for a Border side (Boggarts) who work hard to raise our standards as high as we can, whilst allowing anyone to join our side.  Some of our best dancers took the longest to learn to step and needed encouragement and support to get to where they are now.  We have a lot of younger members, for many of them joining the side was the first step into the 'folk' world.  Some of them have even learned to play the melodeon so that they can keep on going once their knees pack in    It would never be possible to 'police' standards, but, as Ian suggested, having the opportunity to attend events where the focus was on sharing and improving practice in a supportive, rather than judgemental, fashion would be good...

I just think it's a shame that Morris is so full of people bickering.  It kind of helps to perpetuate the image that Morris dancing has, which, in my fairly limited experience, is not a good indication of what a lovely pastime it actually is.

And we may not be invited to appear at the Olympics in our own country, but at least Morris will be well represented in Oman in February 

And the squire of the Ring was very nice to us at JMO 

[Howard Jones]

I'd be interested to see your evidence of mixed gender dancing in traditional teams in the early 20th century, Chris.

There's this early photo of the Upton-on-Severn dancers with a woman in the side: 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_fCTvxTGhgLA/TQdXaAws2WI/AAAAAAAAAKA/ePbPI1G6yZQ/s1600/08+Morris+Border+upton+on+severn+no+blackface+2.jpg

This was printed in the insert to the vinyl edition of Plain Capers, I don't know if it's made it into the CD's notes.  John K seemed more interested that it also shows an anglo concertina.

[Keithypete.]

Is it any wonder that there WON'T be any morris dancing as part of the opening or closing ceremonies of the Olympic games?

Oh, something's gone wrong in the Morris world. I know, let's blame the Ring.

Grow up. 

 I wasn't blaming the ring for anything, but this sort of in-fighting is at best counter-productive, if not actually downright damaging!

[Anahata]

Eurgh, don't get me started on kit based Border (and Molly) sides.  

As far as the latter is concerned, Pig Dyke Molly are well aware that we have problems with our standard of dancing. The team was founded as an "equal-opportunity" organisation and it would go against that to be too restrictive about who was allowed to dance when, but at the same time we are very concerned about how best to balance this with the need for a decent performance at festivals and similar. Let it not be imagined that we don't care about that - a huge amount of discussion has taken place at meetings and practices and will doubtless continue.
We do like to think our music isn't too bad though 

I've seen some of the border teams that fit the above descriptions, but of course can't speak for their recruitment or dance standards policies.

[Owen Woods]

Is it any wonder that there WON'T be any morris dancing as part of the opening or closing ceremonies of the Olympic games?

Oh, something's gone wrong in the Morris world. I know, let's blame the Ring.

Grow up. 

 I wasn't blaming the ring for anything, but this sort of in-fighting is at best counter-productive, if not actually downright damaging!

I have to say that your previous post did clearly give the impression that you were blaming the Ring personally for not getting Morris at the Olympics by the poor dancing of some of their sides.

[Ollie]

Eurgh, don't get me started on kit based Border (and Molly) sides.  

As far as the latter is concerned, Pig Dyke Molly are well aware that we have problems with our standard of dancing. The team was founded as an "equal-opportunity" organisation and it would go against that to be too restrictive about who was allowed to dance when, but at the same time we are very concerned about how best to balance this with the need for a decent performance at festivals and similar. Let it not be imagined that we don't care about that - a huge amount of discussion has taken place at meetings and practices and will doubtless continue.
We do like to think our music isn't too bad though 

I've seen some of the border teams that fit the above descriptions, but of course can't speak for their recruitment or dance standards policies.

Just to be clear, I wasn't referring to Pig Dyke; I thought you danced very well on Saturday. :)

[malcolmbebb]

I'd be interested to see your evidence of mixed gender dancing in traditional teams in the early 20th century, Chris.

There's this early photo of the Upton-on-Severn dancers with a woman in the side: 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_fCTvxTGhgLA/TQdXaAws2WI/AAAAAAAAAKA/ePbPI1G6yZQ/s1600/08+Morris+Border+upton+on+severn+no+blackface+2.jpg

This was printed in the insert to the vinyl edition of Plain Capers, I don't know if it's made it into the CD's notes.  John K seemed more interested that it also shows an anglo concertina.

And so he should be! Discerning chap, JK.

It is interesting to see and hear of early female dancers, but to me they are still scarce enough to be the exception that proves the rule. Were they commonplace the references would have been extremely well aired by now, and they just haven't been.

But we should not forget that we are looking at different times with different rules. The day to day social customs by which people live are often transparent to them and to contemporary commentators, so everyday as to not be worth recording. And the idea that people had their places, some things you did and some you didn't, was pretty ingrained.

It seems pretty clear that women didn't do public dancing. The idea, despised today, that a women's place was in the home was most likely a day to day necessity and pretty constant day to day. The thought of a woman - especially a young married woman - dancing with a group of men at organised - or worse, un-organised events - just wasn't on. It's widely held that women who did perform in public were considered in the same brackets as prostitutes - actors and dancers - and while that may be overstated in the context of a country village bash, it just doesn't seem to have the done thing.
But I expect the girls would have known the dances as well as the boys, and there are records (somewhere) of girls dancing but ceasing upon marriage.
You can put paganism and whatever to one side, peer pressure and social pressure are far more powerful and they don't usually get reported. Men had periods when work was scarce and they didn't do housework (apparently) so dancing and practicing were viable, also of course a way to earn a few bob or a few beers.

The industrial revolution mixed that all up, with women's roles changing from home to factory workers, and the rules changed. Cotswold, as we know it, still seems to remain in the country with other dance styles appearing in the factory towns  - stave and what we now call north-west styles - with women heavily involved.
Throw in a few wars, and attitudes have changed to our present mindset with the pendulum going the other way, and it's difficult for us to see the world through the eyes of people fifty, a hundred, two hundred years ago.

So  - the above just my opinion, of course - I consider that Cotswold Morris probably was mostly all male, by custom rather than perhaps by tradition, for reasons that no longer exist. Revival exclusively all male dancing may be based on a less than totally accurate view, but it has a 75+ plus year tradition behind it now, and it's a perfectly valid option in a pluralist society.

That's not why we dance it of course, we dance it because it's bloody good fun and were it not so then nobody would bother. And there would be a lot fewer melodeon players.

[Ollie]

I'd be interested to see your evidence of mixed gender dancing in traditional teams in the early 20th century, Chris.

There's this early photo of the Upton-on-Severn dancers with a woman in the side: 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_fCTvxTGhgLA/TQdXaAws2WI/AAAAAAAAAKA/ePbPI1G6yZQ/s1600/08+Morris+Border+upton+on+severn+no+blackface+2.jpg

This was printed in the insert to the vinyl edition of Plain Capers, I don't know if it's made it into the CD's notes.  John K seemed more interested that it also shows an anglo concertina.

Thanks for that, not seen that before. 

Is it any wonder that there WON'T be any morris dancing as part of the opening or closing ceremonies of the Olympic games?

Oh, something's gone wrong in the Morris world. I know, let's blame the Ring.

Grow up. 

I wasn't blaming the ring for anything, but this sort of in-fighting is at best counter-productive, if not actually downright damaging!

It certainly sounded like it. I agree; please stop provoking it then. 

[Thrupenny Bit]

Amazingly I've missed this thread so far......

Hanging on my wall is a picture of my wife's Great Grandmother and Great (Great?) Grandfather.
He is stood top hatted, high waisted britches and various ribbons, and fiddle in hand.
Sat all around him are a load of young women in mop caps and dresses arraged in a team photo.
It's labelled " Morris Dancers, June 19th 1909 Spon End"
An area in Coventry where my wife hails from. Whatever people say, women have always danced the morris, and if you are ever fortunate to talk with Roy Dommett or attend an instructional, he can quote times, dates, sides etc verbatum of when they danced.

IanD: thank you kind sir for the kind comment about Great Western. We do seem to egg each other on on occasions. All good fun, and it must be done 
On occasions one of our elder statesman occasionally dances, still dances well, and is in his late 70's!
He does pick his dances but is utterly inspirational, especially when doing a jig with son and grandson.......
Though at a Dommett workshop in April, after dancing friday night, all day and evening on  saturday, we progressed to Longborough on sunday morning,ending up with Swaggering Boney, and 12 minutes later , a touch breathless, I realised our elder statesman had also done it. Age is in the mind.  It just hurts more now.....

Sometimes standards of performance and standards of dance are mixed up.
There are times when a side can perform really well, maybe not dance technically that well, but engage and perform for an audience who go away feeling really up, having enjoyed the experience.
Other times a side can dance technically very well but not engage at all, so the audience goes away uninspired or bored even, not really knowing what it was all about.
To maintain a good standard of dance *and* perform well for an audience is our goal.
Well, we try, as do our good mates the Smiffs!
Anyway, must off to bed.
Night all
Q
zzzzzzzz

[Anahata]

While I don't support the extremist view that women shouldn't dance morris, I do think there's something to be said for at least some single-sex teams and accepting that we are different.
Stroud had (still have?) a women's and men's team that operate together, with many couples involved in both. The two team's dances are different and their kit is different but with a common colour scheme.
Similarly Shropshire Bedlam and Martha Rhoden's Tuppenny Dish, but without the common colour scheme. Very different dances.
Old Glory Molly have strictly men dancing and women playing, with totally different kit for each.
All of the above exploit the natural differences between male and female in their dancing style, and I think it's good that at least some of us are doing that.

Yes, I'm playing for a mixed team, but Pig Dyke's dancing style has been designed to be gender neutral. And I love Boggart's Breakfast who are mixed border, but they do it well and look fantastic. There's room for all of us...

[jonm]

My main issue with mixed (Cotswold) morris is the bits which bob up and down.

Men tend to dance buttocks forward, shoulders back and stomach prominent. Women tend to have the bottom back, knees together, leaning forward and often more round-shouldered. Basically, the two stances (and associated anatomical components) create different frequencies and amplitudes of simple harmonic motion when dancing.

The only mixed teams who look half decent IMHO have a distinct degree of androgyny.

I agree with the comments on Boggart's Breakfast - hadn't come across them until recently with youtube links from here, but the dancing is high-precision with complex figures. Good stuff, and entertaining. Totally gives the lie to the (generally true) maxim that the better the kit, the worse the dancing with border / molly teams!

[Chris Ryall]

 
  B'gg'r me!
  Fourier analysis of morris dancing   
  Amazing what has spun off a little cartoon .. 

[malcolmbebb]

 
  B'gg'r me!
  Fourier analysis of morris dancing   

Presumably, were it Fluffy Morris under examination, one might use Furrier Analysis?

[Bob Ellis]

In the late 1960s and early 1970s, I undertook quite extensive reseach into Cotswold and Border Morris dancing and longsword dancing at Cecil Sharp House, the British Library, the Public Record Office (since rebranded as the National Archives) and various regional archives and libraries. One of the things for which I looked (at the request of my sister, who was dancing with Cardiff Ladies at that time) was evidence of women dancing with traditional sides. Unfortunately, I lent my notes to someone several years ago and they were never returned, so I am writing this from a somewhat hazy memory.

The oldest reference I found was of women making up depleted numbers in a Cotswold side during the last years of the Napoleonic War. I came across a similar reference to a Cotswold side during the Crimean War and one pertaining to a Border side during the Second Boer War. Unfortunately, I can't remember the names of these sides, but I think the one in the Napoleonic War was in Oxfordshire, possibly Stanton Harcourt. In at least one of these cases, a newspaper article stated explicitly that this was a temporary situation caused by the war. I found two or three similar references to women dancing during the First World War.

Clearly, these were isolated examples and were short term expedients to enable the sides to survive a temporary shortage of men, but they illustrate what must have happened throughout Morris history - that sides adapted to social, economic and cultural circumstances, as they continue to do nowadays.