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Author Topic: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons  (Read 16569 times)

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Chris Brimley

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #100 on: February 03, 2012, 09:48:33 AM »

Re Andrew's pertinent point, the Wikipedia test of Original Research (OR) seems to be:

Quote
To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material as presented.

Which I think is all I was trying to do - no original thinking, I'm afraid, just looking for reliable sources, such as the Wheatstone patents.   The test does of course equally affect both sides of the debate.

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Stiamh

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #101 on: February 03, 2012, 01:42:54 PM »

How would a bot know where to put the citation needed tags?   ???    :D

Good question, but I'm not making it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AnomieBOT
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Stiamh

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #102 on: February 03, 2012, 05:39:18 PM »

SteveFR: thanks for stepping up to curb the excessive zeal of "AnomieBot", whatever it is.

Ongoing improvements dept.:

Notable players:
I have little familiarity with continental DBA players. Would some of you that do care to look at the following list and suggest four or five names from France and Italy and other countries for the above section? Thanks.

Add them directly, or just give your suggestions here.

Link to article in Fr Wikipedia


2. Photos.
C'mon, lads and lasses. The article could really use some decent pics, esp. of: a big beautiful BCC, and nice one-row four-stop, and an organetto, and maybe a classic Club.

Upload them here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

It's easier if you upload your own photos, because then you can declare them as "own work" and grant what rights you wish to them. If I upload people's pix, it's awkward, because I don't have the right to assign the rights.

You have to create a Wikipedia account, but that opens lots of wonderful possibilities to you. :-)
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Andy in Vermont

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #103 on: February 04, 2012, 05:33:00 PM »

Similarly the only evidence I have for "bisonoric/unisonoric" is this forum and the existing Wikipedia article. I'll do some more searching on those terms too. In the meantime, do you have any evidence of their wider use? Who first promulgated them, and when?

I believe these terms were used in the "Planet Squeezebox" book that accompanied the CD set.  I had a conversation with one of the authors of the notes in that book, who told me that they expressly decided to use those terms instead of "single action/double-action."  I don't recall the exact reason, but I believe it was because of the confusion caused by "double action" -- which refers to the _same_ note in both directions.

Apologies if this was covered in other posts above; I'm responding to Steve's post, having not yet found time to read the entire thread (my Civil Procedure book is currently higher up in priority!).
-Andy

oggiesnr

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #104 on: February 05, 2012, 10:16:54 AM »

Similarly the only evidence I have for "bisonoric/unisonoric" is this forum and the existing Wikipedia article. I'll do some more searching on those terms too. In the meantime, do you have any evidence of their wider use? Who first promulgated them, and when?

It's used extensively throughout this site, http://www.inorg.chem.ethz.ch/tango/band/band_node13.html#930

Steve
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oggiesnr

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #105 on: February 05, 2012, 12:29:43 PM »

Further thought.  Logically a single action box would be something like a contra-bass concertina which only sounds on the push, ie under pressure.

Steve
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Theo

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #106 on: February 05, 2012, 01:42:54 PM »

Further thought.  Logically a single action box would be something like a contra-bass concertina which only sounds on the push, ie under pressure.

Steve

That point has been discussed earlier in this thread.

Wikipedia itself uses the bisonoric/unisonoric terms exclusively in the entry for Accordions
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Theo

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #107 on: February 05, 2012, 02:14:43 PM »

I've added to the list of Scottish players:
Will Starr, Fergie MacDonald, Graeme Irvine
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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oggiesnr

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #108 on: February 05, 2012, 02:18:14 PM »

Further thought.  Logically a single action box would be something like a contra-bass concertina which only sounds on the push, ie under pressure.

Steve

That point has been discussed earlier in this thread.


Oops, sorry, where's the blushing smiley?

Steve
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Bill Young

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #109 on: February 05, 2012, 02:22:20 PM »

I've added to the list of Scottish players:
Will Starr, Fergie MacDonald, Graeme Irvine
It's GRAHAM Irvine (but Graeme Mackay).

Howard Jones

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #110 on: February 05, 2012, 02:42:08 PM »

Here's an authority for single/double action: an ICA article quoting George Grove’s Article on the 'Concertina' in the first edition of 'A Dictionary of Music and Musicians' (1878)

http://www.concertina.org/ica/index.php/pica/subject-index/39-historical-documents/93-george-groves-article-on-the-concertina-in-the-first-edition-of-a-dictionary-of-music-and-musicians-1878

Uni/bisonoric appears quite widely in internet searches, but I'm not sure if the sites carry sufficient authority to be cited.  For what it's worth, here's a link to Webster's Online Dictionary, again about concertinas:

http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definitions/concertina

Scroll down to the extended definition.  This seems to use "sonoricity" to describe the different notes provided by the keys, and "action" to refer to whether sound is produced in one or both directions of the bellows .  A subtle distinction.

Theo

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #111 on: February 05, 2012, 03:23:42 PM »

I've added to the list of Scottish players:
Will Starr, Fergie MacDonald, Graeme Irvine
It's GRAHAM Irvine (but Graeme Mackay).

Thanks Bill.  Now corrected.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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pgroff

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #112 on: February 05, 2012, 04:24:50 PM »

Here's an authority for single/double action: an ICA article quoting George Grove’s Article on the 'Concertina' in the first edition of 'A Dictionary of Music and Musicians' (1878)

http://www.concertina.org/ica/index.php/pica/subject-index/39-historical-documents/93-george-groves-article-on-the-concertina-in-the-first-edition-of-a-dictionary-of-music-and-musicians-1878

Uni/bisonoric appears quite widely in internet searches, but I'm not sure if the sites carry sufficient authority to be cited.  For what it's worth, here's a link to Webster's Online Dictionary, again about concertinas:

http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definitions/concertina

Scroll down to the extended definition.  This seems to use "sonoricity" to describe the different notes provided by the keys, and "action" to refer to whether sound is produced in one or both directions of the bellows .  A subtle distinction.

Hi Howard,

I'm close to agreeing with your last point (see my post on p. 3 above):  unisonoric vs bisonoric refers to whether 1 or 2 notes are produced per key -- but in the case of bisonoric free reed instruments, the term does seem to imply that bellows direction selects between the 2 notes.  On the other hand, double action refers to a sounding of the same note in 2 different directions of airflow -- not exactly a synonym for unisonoric.

Has anyone had a chance to check Hugh Blake's article on his "Diatonion" from Concertina & Squeezebox magazine (probably late 1980s or early 1990s)?  As I mentioned above, on p. 2 of this thread, from a dim memory I think there is a chance that article may be an early use (or even the coining) of the unisonoric / bisonoric dichotomous terms.

PG
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #113 on: February 05, 2012, 05:53:31 PM »

Just some points on the 2009 comments by Allan Atlas on Sir George Grove's interesting article of 1878:

Allan Atlas in his point (2) suggests that Grove created confusion about the meaning of 'double action' by his reference to the two notes being the same.  Allan Atlas says:  'He thus uses the ‘single/double’ terminology in two different ways: first to distinguish the English treble from the Anglo, on which the buttons produce different pitches depending on the direction of the bellows, and then to identify instruments that sound only when the bellows are being pressed in. It is a confusing use of the ‘single/double’action terminology, one that persists even today.'

However Allan Atlas also earlier notes that Gove nowhere mentions the existence of the Anglo or Duet, he was just talking about the Wheatstone English, and so his comment in (2) seems somewhat inconsistent.  It does not necessarily mean Gove was 'confused', or trying to use two meanings. (In saying the two notes were the same he was merely adding more information to his sentence, he was not necessarily using that as an alternative meaning) - the confusion might only arise in the mind of a more modern reader who was familiar with the difference between the two alternative systems.

Two other points in support of Gove's account here - first, if he had been trying to use the term to distinguish the English from the Anglo, surely in that context he wouldn't have tried to use 'double' and 'single' that way round, he would have used the opposite?  And second, Gove is relating the history of the Wheatstone patents, with which he was clearly very familiar, and which are very clearcut as to Wheatstone's original meaning.  Gove also knows very well about 'single-action' English system concertinas.  I do not see that this document establishes that Gove was himself responsible for the later confusion, given the context, and I would have thought it unlikely that he was trying to widen the meaning.  Others may well inadvertently have subsequently interpreted 'the two notes being the same' as constituting an alternative interpretation for 'double action', but again I would have thought they just didn't understand the context of Gove's document.

However, it may well be that there is more evidence in the notes, the links to which unfortunately are not available to us.  Is Allan Atlas contactable at all, does anyone know?

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oggiesnr

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #114 on: February 05, 2012, 06:07:52 PM »

It may be worth remembering that Grove was looking at classical music rather than music in general.  In this context he would be concerned with the English concertina as it pertained to classical music rather than the anglo or duet which were not.

Steve
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #115 on: February 05, 2012, 11:49:22 PM »

Thanks for pointing out that little Freudian, jb, it took me ages to work out what I'd done wrong - but that just made it all the funnier when I did!  And I managed to get it wrong all the way through, too!  (Definitely Freudian.)  Damn, and there was me trying to be all scholarly and that.
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Stiamh

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #116 on: February 06, 2012, 02:58:34 PM »

Update: have provided at least some kind of reference for almost all the [citations needed] tags - most of which popped up again despite Steve FR's taking an axe to them. The three that remain all concern - you guessed it, single/double action and bisonoric.

I am ruminating on the wording for a concise note on the ambiguity and controversy, with references, such as Wheatstone & Grove for the action business (thank you sleuths) and others (not sure which would be best) for bison/unison-oric. My hope being that this will acknowledge the different interpretations yet still give place to both the old-established-but-confusing and the newer-but-inelegant terminologies. Happiness of everyone is too much to aim for; perhaps I can achieve the grudging consent of most.  :|glug

Thanks to Theo for populating the lists of foreign exponents.  

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Theo

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #117 on: February 06, 2012, 03:04:26 PM »

Update: have provided at least some kind of reference for almost all the [citations needed] tags - most of which popped up again despite Steve FR's taking an axe to them. The three that remain all concern - you guessed it, single/double action and bisonoric.

I am ruminating on the wording for a concise note on the ambiguity and controversy, with references, such as Wheatstone & Grove for the action business (thank you sleuths) and others (not sure which would be best) for bison/unison-oric. My hope being that this will acknowledge the different interpretations yet still give place to both the old-established-but-confusing and the newer-but-inelegant terminologies. Happiness of everyone is too much to aim for; perhaps I can achieve the grudging consent of most.  :|glug

Thanks to Theo for populating the lists of foreign exponents.  



Steve, you might of missed my brief mention a few posts back that the Wikipedia page for  Accordion uses unisonoric/bisonoric exclusivly.   For consistency should not the DBA page be the same?   Then the single/double action terminology can be left for the instruments like some types of concertina where Chris has established that it more than likely originated.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Chris Brimley

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #118 on: February 06, 2012, 03:46:01 PM »

I think Theo makes a good point. 

As I understand the situation, the main worry about 'bisonoric' and 'unisonoric' is that they don't seem to exist in any authoritative dictionary, nor it seems does the word 'sonoric'.  (AFAIK?)  The word 'sonority', from which these words may be thought to derive, refers to the quality of a sound, which is not necessarily the same as its pitch.  I'm also not entirely sure whether the terms, useful though they certainly are, are thought to refer to the buttons, or to the design of the whole instrument.

Of course, one simple way out of our remaining concerns about these words might simply be to say something like:

Some instruments are designed with most buttons playing two pitches (one for each bellows direction), a design which is increasingly referred to as 'bisonoric'.  Other types of instruments have buttons playing the same pitch in each direction ('unisonoric').

Would we all be happy with that, including authors of the Accordion page?

I suppose one of the difficulties (or maybe advantages?) of global encyclopedias is that they can cross national boundaries, when the use of the English language by different countries is no doubt diverging?
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mory

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #119 on: February 06, 2012, 03:47:25 PM »

Its not all about consensus anyways Steve, wasn't long ago that some would have had us believe a majority view was being held regarding what to call the sound board on a box, but when it came down to it we were only hearing a few persistant voices out of nearly a couple of thousand available on this site alone. So stand up that man (that's you Steve) and take a bow for what your doing, I note you've continuously been open to the relative descriptions and I think (for whatever that's worth) it's important not to discount what is obviously a term in use.All the Best mory

Incidentally on this thread so far you have posted 23 times Chris Brimley 28 times with 24 people in total posting with support for both terms with a total of 119 replies and 1732 views, which I believe supports my point above
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