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Author Topic: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons  (Read 23513 times)

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Steve_freereeder

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Time for action on SA/DA?
« Reply #120 on: February 06, 2012, 04:12:44 PM »

First of all, I should like to pass on my thanks and congratulations to Steve Jones for setting the whole Wikipedia entry for diatonic button accordions into motion. It's a good and valuable piece of work.

However, the single action/double action (SA/DA) section remains unsatisfactory. Over the last week or so I think we've aired the SA/DA debate quite extensively now. The following points made in earlier posts are becoming quite clear:

1. The SA/DA definition is confused. Whether through error or changing usage over time, SA/DA has meant different things at different times by different authors.

2. To many melodeon players (aka diatonic button accordion players) used to the push-pull nature of the instrument, the definition of SA/DA promoted by Steve Jones in the Wikipedia article is completely counter-intuitive.

3. 'Single action' means something quite specialised in terms of bass concertinas and the like, where notes are produced in one bellows direction only (the other direction is silent).

4. As Theo has pointed out a couple of times, the companion Wikipedia entry for 'Accordion' contains no reference to SA/DA at all.

5. The terns unisonoric and bisonoric, although possibly unattractive as words to some people, are nevertheless much more intuitive and clear in their meaning, and are widely used among the melodeon/DBA/concertina playing communities. 

In the light of the above and for those reasons I therefore PROPOSE that:

All references to SA/DA should be removed and the terms unisonoric and bisonoric be retained.

Removal of the SA/DA terms simplifies and clarifies the Wikipedia entry and in no way implies any criticism of Steve Jones who has done a great job in compiling the page.

All those in favour say 'aye'.

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Lester

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Re: Time for action on SA/DA?
« Reply #121 on: February 06, 2012, 04:19:45 PM »

mory

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #122 on: February 06, 2012, 04:36:22 PM »

think the high jacking of this thread and attempt at rail roading your viewpoint is most improper and uncomfortable 
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Ollie

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #123 on: February 06, 2012, 04:37:11 PM »

think the high jacking of this thread and attempt at rail roading your viewpoint is most improper and uncomfortable 

 ??? I don't think this has been done at all...
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #124 on: February 06, 2012, 04:45:38 PM »

think the high jacking of this thread and attempt at rail roading your viewpoint is most improper and uncomfortable  
Whoah! I don't think attempting to summarise what has gone before and putting a proposition to help clarify things counts as hi-jacking and railroading, and I'd like to know why it is improper.

Please re-read what I have written:
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,8735.msg109694.html#msg109694

Have I been rude? Have I been disrespectful to anyone?  >:(
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ladydetemps

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #125 on: February 06, 2012, 04:46:28 PM »

Oi! *all* of you play nice or I'll come round and play my fiddle at you.  :P ::)

Everyone is free to summerise the notable points. Mory if your that worried do a summery yourself how you see it.
Discussion not argument.

BTW IMO  Why not draw a diagram and leave out the special technical terms save all this arguing?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 04:48:48 PM by ladydetemps »
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Owen Woods

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #126 on: February 06, 2012, 04:59:00 PM »

Aye. Well put Steve.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #127 on: February 06, 2012, 05:13:45 PM »

Aye.  It's probably best, all in all.  Well done both Steves.

And if there are masses of dissenters out there, do say so now, so that everybody knows your views.

(29 now? ;) )
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mory

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Re: Time for action on SA/DA?
« Reply #128 on: February 06, 2012, 05:15:27 PM »

First of all, I should like to pass on my thanks and congratulations to Steve Jones for setting the whole Wikipedia entry for diatonic button accordions into motion. It's a good and valuable piece of work.

However, the single action/double action (SA/DA) section remains unsatisfactory. Over the last week or so I think we've aired the SA/DA debate quite extensively now. The following points made in earlier posts are becoming quite clear:

1. The SA/DA definition is confused. Whether through error or changing usage over time, SA/DA has meant different things at different times by different authors.

2. To many melodeon players (aka diatonic button accordion players) used to the push-pull nature of the instrument, the definition of SA/DA promoted by Steve Jones in the Wikipedia article is completely counter-intuitive.

3. 'Single action' means something quite specialised in terms of bass concertinas and the like, where notes are produced in one bellows direction only (the other direction is silent).

4. As Theo has pointed out a couple of times, the companion Wikipedia entry for 'Accordion' contains no reference to SA/DA at all.

5. The terns unisonoric and bisonoric, although possibly unattractive as words to some people, are nevertheless much more intuitive and clear in their meaning, and are widely used among the melodeon/DBA/concertina playing communities. 

In the light of the above and for those reasons I therefore PROPOSE that:

All references to SA/DA should be removed and the terms unisonoric and bisonoric be retained.

Removal of the SA/DA terms simplifies and clarifies the Wikipedia entry and in no way implies any criticism of Steve Jones who has done a great job in compiling the page.

All those in favour say 'aye'.


I think the sudden appearence of a new thread and title in the middle of Steves is at least rude and certainly provocative surely the appropriate action would have been to start a new thread and as I said here
Its not all about consensus anyways Steve, wasn't long ago that some would have had us believe a majority view was being held regarding what to call the sound board on a box, but when it came down to it we were only hearing a few persistant voices out of nearly a couple of thousand available on this site alone. So stand up that man (that's you Steve) and take a bow for what your doing, I note you've continuously been open to the relative descriptions and I think (for whatever that's worth) it's important not to discount what is obviously a term in use.All the Best mory

Incidentally on this thread so far you have posted 23 times Chris Brimley 28 times with 24 people in total posting with support for both terms with a total of 119 replies and 1732 views, which I believe supports my point above
this we vote so that decides it is twadle AtB mory
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Andrew Wigglesworth

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #129 on: February 06, 2012, 05:15:43 PM »

It's not up to people to decide here. That's not how Wikipedia works.

These discussions ought to be on the talk page of the article.

Steve_freereeder

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #130 on: February 06, 2012, 05:24:58 PM »

It's not up to people to decide here. That's not how Wikipedia works.

These discussions ought to be on the talk page of the article.
There's no reason why discussion shouldn't take place on the Wikipedia talk page, although you do have to register first to be able to contribute.

Nevertheless, discussions have taken place here on melnet, principally because the main author of the Wikipedia article posted his initial drafts here in the first place; something which has been much appreciated (he could have just gone ahead and done it without reference to the rest of us at all). Whatever the outcome of the discussions here, it then goes on to Wikipedia and is then open to anyone to discuss, edit, amend, delete, etc., which is how Wikipedia works. We're just in a preliminary stage here.
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Steve
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Time for action on SA/DA?
« Reply #131 on: February 06, 2012, 05:31:11 PM »

I think the sudden appearence of a new thread and title in the middle of Steves is at least rude and certainly provocative
Please calm down. It's the same thread, not a new one. Anyone can amend the title of their post within an existing thread to highlight something specific, which was my only reason for doing so. I've no intention of being rude or provocative.
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Graham Spencer

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #132 on: February 06, 2012, 06:25:46 PM »

I have to say I don't see anything rude or provocative in Steve Fr's posts; a firmly expressed and equally firmly held opinion, yes, but entirely germane to the subject, and not in any way that I could see derogatory or inflammatory.
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mory

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Re:Thread renaming mid thread
« Reply #133 on: February 06, 2012, 06:29:39 PM »

I think the sudden appearance of a new thread and title in the middle of Steve's is at least rude and certainly provocative
Please calm down. It's the same thread, not a new one. Anyone can amend the title of their post within an existing thread to highlight something specific, which was my only reason for doing so. I've no intention of being rude or provocative.
I am glad, I apologise if I have misconstrued your actions. mory

GPS I was not aware that it was ok to change the title of someones thread albeit for making your own specific point
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 06:44:54 PM by mory »
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mory

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #134 on: February 06, 2012, 06:43:25 PM »

Qoute from Steve Free reeder "All references to SA/DA should be removed and the terms unisonoric and bisonoric be retained" All those in favour?? what about those that already use those terms that you are in favour of removing completly? this really doesn't feel comfortable Steve F and I have good reason to feel that way which I won't air here mory
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Ollie

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #135 on: February 06, 2012, 06:45:14 PM »

FFS, it's a discussion about some technical language! Get a grip, people!  ::)
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #136 on: February 06, 2012, 06:52:17 PM »

Qoute from Steve Free reeder "All references to SA/DA should be removed and the terms unisonoric and bisonoric be retained" All those in favour?? what about those that already use those terms that you are in favour of removing completly? this really doesn't feel comfortable Steve F and I have good reason to feel that way which I won't air here mory
It's a proposal - no more, no less. People can agree with it, or not, as they wish, as Chris Brimley has already said:

Aye.  It's probably best, all in all.  Well done both Steves.

And if there are masses of dissenters out there, do say so now, so that everybody knows your views.

Mory - I think you have made your viewpoint abundantly clear.
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Andrew Wigglesworth

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #137 on: February 06, 2012, 06:55:58 PM »

Qoute from Steve Free reeder "All references to SA/DA should be removed and the terms unisonoric and bisonoric be retained" All those in favour?? what about those that already use those terms that you are in favour of removing completly? this really doesn't feel comfortable Steve F and I have good reason to feel that way which I won't air here mory

If there are good citations for either set of terms then they should be included.

mory

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #138 on: February 06, 2012, 06:59:10 PM »

 
FFS, it's a discussion about some technical language! Get a grip, people!  ::)
But its not Ollie, its about one view being imposed over another, something quite different, to even suggest that the terms in question should be removed in deference to the other terms demands a way of thinking that is questionable in the context of equality of human beings to each other so, FFS it's a discussion about some technical language! Get a grip people! doesn't really encapsulate the reality, if only it were as simple as you indicate. All the Best mory  

Lastly I'd like to see the Article survive and for it to be all inclusive so any research that helps that will help us all
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 07:03:54 PM by mory »
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Andrew Wigglesworth

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Re: Help me rewrite the Wikipedia article on DBAs/melodeons
« Reply #139 on: February 06, 2012, 07:02:30 PM »

FFS, it's a discussion about some technical language! Get a grip, people!  ::)
But its not Ollie, its about one view being imposed over another, something quite different, to even suggest that the terms in question should be removed in deferance to the other terms demands a way of thinking that is questionable in the context of equality of human beings to each other so, FFS it's a discussion about some technical language! Get a grip people! doesn't really encapsulate the reality, if only it were as simple as you indicate. All the Best mory  



You're correct, and it is entirely inappropriate in terms of Wikipedia as well since neither term has been adequately referenced in any case.
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