Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: Are notes Right / Wrong / or just different ?  (Read 12024 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

strad

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 418
Re: Are notes Right / Wrong / or just different ?
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2012, 09:29:21 PM »

I'm sometimes told that the tune I've just played is not as I composed it. Get strange looks when I say it's all part of the folk process. Providing the melody is still there and recognisable, play what you like in between!!

Nigel
Logged

IanD

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1662
  • Too many melodeons...
Re: Are notes Right / Wrong / or just different ?
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2012, 02:03:14 PM »

As I was the person who used the "wrong" word to start with, maybe I should elaborate...

Small changes in tunes happen naturally over time ("the folk process"), as do major rearrangements by somebody who's deliberately completely altering a tune -- which could be viewed more as a rewrite or a new tune than a rearrangement. In many tunes some of the "official" notes are really ornaments on a more basic tune, and leaving these out can strip the tune back to a plainer version which can be beneficial. And adding ornamentation or alternative phrases or harmonies or counterpoint  to a tune are a long-established part of the skills of a good musician.

But sometimes lovely tunes are altered (bodged? mislearned?) and made very much the worse in the progress, for example "Canal en Octobre" where the best feature of the tune -- the lovely rhythmical swings and leads, especially in the A music -- have often been replaced nowadays by a clumpy English straight 4/4 beat, which completely destroys the tune. I heard this when someone played it at the Wantage weekend, where I'm afraid I said "That's wrong, it should sound like this!" (literally correct for once, since I knew how Fred Paris -- who wrote it -- played it) and demonstrated it -- to which the reaction was "Wow, that's *so* much better, it's a much nicer tune". Maybe that's why Fred wrote it that way in the first place...

And I'd say the same was true of the posted version of Winter's Night Schottiche (another written tune), which was why I said it was wrong :-)

Ian
Logged
Oakwood Model 4 D/G, Castagnari Dony D/G/#, Castagnari Tommy G/C, Baffetti Binci D/G, Hohner Preciosa D/G, Melos Bb/Eb, Lightwave SL5 and Kala California fretless basses

Steve_freereeder

  • Content Manager
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7511
  • MAD is inevitable. Keep Calm and Carry On
    • Lizzie Dripping
Re: Are notes Right / Wrong / or just different ?
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2012, 02:46:30 PM »

Small changes in tunes happen naturally over time ("the folk process"), as do major rearrangements by somebody who's deliberately completely altering a tune -- which could be viewed more as a rewrite or a new tune than a rearrangement. In many tunes some of the "official" notes are really ornaments on a more basic tune, and leaving these out can strip the tune back to a plainer version which can be beneficial. And adding ornamentation or alternative phrases or harmonies or counterpoint  to a tune are a long-established part of the skills of a good musician.

But sometimes lovely tunes are altered (bodged? mislearned?) and made very much the worse in the progress, for example "Canal en Octobre" where the best feature of the tune -- the lovely rhythmical swings and leads, especially in the A music -- have often been replaced nowadays by a clumpy English straight 4/4 beat, which completely destroys the tune. I heard this when someone played it at the Wantage weekend, where I'm afraid I said "That's wrong, it should sound like this!" (literally correct for once, since I knew how Fred Paris -- who wrote it -- played it) and demonstrated it -- to which the reaction was "Wow, that's *so* much better, it's a much nicer tune". Maybe that's why Fred wrote it that way in the first place...
Hear, hear! Absolutely spot on, Ian. A really excellent summary, thank you!
Logged
Steve
Sheffield, UK.
www.lizziedripping.org.uk

OldJack

  • Good talker
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 76
    • Suisun Sailor
Re: Are notes Right / Wrong / or just different ?
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2012, 05:12:32 AM »

If I may, I would like to add this to the discussion. I live in a waste land, halfway between San Francisco and Sacramento. There's not another known melodeon or concertina player within 50 miles (80 kilometers). Without this net, the concertina net, the dots, the ABC files, and you folks on the You Tube, I would have no way being part of any live music. So, when I sit on my boat and serenade my wife, the ducks, and the gulls, I thank all of you. :||:

Jack
Logged

Thrupenny Bit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6831
  • happily squeezing away in Devon
Re: Are notes Right / Wrong / or just different ?
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2012, 11:01:18 AM »

We've had a similar evolved thread when I posted about JK's tunebook and how inspiring it was.
The point was made that since the late 60's/early 70's we've only really started to learn *how* to play English music again after it nearly die out, and that the written tune was merely a rough framework to be embellished at the player's will.
As Ian said, it happens over time naturally.
I suppose the incident over Canal en Octobre is somewhat different because the tune has a definitive original version known/played by the composer. Most of these tunes we thrash out are eons old and have no definitive starting point or version.
Q
Logged
Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10172
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: Are notes Right / Wrong / or just different ?
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2012, 11:36:36 AM »

Unfortunately, all forms of music attract people who are (spiritually) butterfly collectors - they enjoy the beauty of the butterfly by killing it and pinning it to a card. They enjoy music the same way - by killing it so that it can be nailed down for good. They would tell a butterfly that they didn't recognize that it was 'wrong' too.

That is such a good way of putting .. something I've been trying to express for decades  8)
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

IanD

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1662
  • Too many melodeons...
Re: Are notes Right / Wrong / or just different ?
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2012, 11:42:23 AM »

We've had a similar evolved thread when I posted about JK's tunebook and how inspiring it was.
The point was made that since the late 60's/early 70's we've only really started to learn *how* to play English music again after it nearly die out, and that the written tune was merely a rough framework to be embellished at the player's will.
As Ian said, it happens over time naturally.
I suppose the incident over Canal en Octobre is somewhat different because the tune has a definitive original version known/played by the composer. Most of these tunes we thrash out are eons old and have no definitive starting point or version.
Q

I'm also sure that people learning tunes from music books or online sources (dots or ABC files) rather than by learning directly from other (hopefully good) musicians are partly to blame -- I understand if you're isolated, but audio recordings and YouTube don't have this problem, in fact YouTube means you might be more likely to learn from a brilliant musician if you pick carefully ;-)

This was also brought home to me at the Wantage workshop where I sent out notation (and MIDI files generated from it) beforehand so people could get their heads round the tunes. When I actually played the tunes several people said "Wow, they don't sound anything like the notation". Of course not, I replied, that's why you're here...

The "swing" and "life" of folk music played by a good musician is almost impossible to capture in musical notation -- I know, I've tried when people have asked, it just can't be done. Another often-massacred tune is Serpentiner och Konfetti (which I guess I introduced the the English folk/morris scene after we played support for Groupa, and has spread widely since), which sounds fantastic played with "swing" and dreadfully leaden when not. I've attached my try at notating it something like I play it, but it still isn't even close -- and nobody would ever write a tune out like this.
Logged
Oakwood Model 4 D/G, Castagnari Dony D/G/#, Castagnari Tommy G/C, Baffetti Binci D/G, Hohner Preciosa D/G, Melos Bb/Eb, Lightwave SL5 and Kala California fretless basses

IanD

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1662
  • Too many melodeons...
Re: Are notes Right / Wrong / or just different ?
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2012, 11:46:17 AM »

Unfortunately, all forms of music attract people who are (spiritually) butterfly collectors - they enjoy the beauty of the butterfly by killing it and pinning it to a card. They enjoy music the same way - by killing it so that it can be nailed down for good. They would tell a butterfly that they didn't recognize that it was 'wrong' too.

That is such a good way of putting .. something I've been trying to express for decades  8)

Precisely what I meant -- I'm in no way saying that a tune can't be improved or ornamented, in fact I probably never play a tune exactly as written. But this process should start from a good rendition of the tune, not a mangled one. And in the days of the Internet badly mangled versions have a horrible habit of spreading like a virus...
Logged
Oakwood Model 4 D/G, Castagnari Dony D/G/#, Castagnari Tommy G/C, Baffetti Binci D/G, Hohner Preciosa D/G, Melos Bb/Eb, Lightwave SL5 and Kala California fretless basses

Thrupenny Bit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6831
  • happily squeezing away in Devon
Re: Are notes Right / Wrong / or just different ?
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2012, 12:07:00 PM »

As someone who, in his first job working for an Entomologist, I would have to gently unwrap a triangle of neatly folded paper, with Victorian handwriting saying something like ' Bosworth Heath 1884'...... opening to reveal a beautifully dried butterfly, most probably the *last* known collected specimen, feeling both wonder and sadness in equal quantities.

Maybe we have stopped gaping in awe at the beauty of the pinned specimen, but have now gone looking for the live version, and are in the process of captively breeding new stock to re-introduce the live creatures ( tunes )  again.
....or have I taken this too far?  ;)
Q
Logged
Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

juker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 838
  • Hohner 2 row G/C and C/F,
    • Julie's Art'nAll
Re: Are notes Right / Wrong / or just different ?
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2012, 12:14:28 PM »

I find this type of discussion a bit discouraging to be honest. I can see the point being made, but all of us who don't have the ability or talent to treat folk music like 'jazz standards' or to embellish the basic tunes, aren't in fact 'spiritually' butterfly collectors. We are just doing our humble best.
Logged
I don't get 'jigs'

IanD

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1662
  • Too many melodeons...
Re: Are notes Right / Wrong / or just different ?
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2012, 12:25:49 PM »

As someone who, in his first job working for an Entomologist, I would have to gently unwrap a triangle of neatly folded paper, with Victorian handwriting saying something like ' Bosworth Heath 1884'...... opening to reveal a beautifully dried butterfly, most probably the *last* known collected specimen, feeling both wonder and sadness in equal quantities.

Maybe we have stopped gaping in awe at the beauty of the pinned specimen, but have now gone looking for the live version, and are in the process of captively breeding new stock to re-introduce the live creatures ( tunes )  again.
....or have I taken this too far?  ;)
Q

Not at all. One of the fascinating things about building up a repertoire for Panjandrum has been that when we want to add a tune in, even if we think we know it (maybe learned at a session, maybe from somebody who had "folk processed" it") we always go back and search around for printed notation, recordings and online to see if what we think we play agrees or not., often because we disagree on the exact notes between ourselves.

Sometimes it's clear what the "right" version is (because the vast majority play it that way) and we start from that. Sometimes you can guess which the "mislearned" versions are, often because something has been simplified to make it easier to play or a more unusual note in a note sequence replaced by a more obvious one -- though of course the obvious one might be the original, and the unusual one something added during "folk processing". Sometimes if the only source is notation and we think that notes are "wrong" (probable errors, because they don't fit with the rest of the tune -- like one F when all the others in the tune (and the scale) are F#) so we'll change them.

In the end we pick the one we that sounds most "right" to us and we like the best and start work on it from there, adding ornamentation and harmonies/counterpoint as we see fit. You could say this is deliberate "folk processing" as opposed to accidental, but actually it's not much different to what often happens in reality when somebody learns a tune in a session -- unless they learn it slowly note by note (not traditional!) errors creep in (as happens with time and memory), and these usually make the tune "nicer" i.e. fit in better with what the musician wants to play.

So hoorah for the folk process and variations and fantastic tunes and musicianship, boo for the people who insist on playing every note exactly as written down every time or unknowingly propagate horribly mangled versions of wonderful tunes :-)

Ian

P.S. By "exactly as written down" I mean how a classical musician would play "from the dots" -- there are great box players like Ed Rennie who do play "straight", but not "as written" -- subtle variations in note length, timing and volume add life to the music even without much ornamentation, which can be overdone.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 12:34:29 PM by IanD »
Logged
Oakwood Model 4 D/G, Castagnari Dony D/G/#, Castagnari Tommy G/C, Baffetti Binci D/G, Hohner Preciosa D/G, Melos Bb/Eb, Lightwave SL5 and Kala California fretless basses

IanD

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1662
  • Too many melodeons...
Re: Are notes Right / Wrong / or just different ?
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2012, 12:30:06 PM »

I find this type of discussion a bit discouraging to be honest. I can see the point being made, but all of us who don't have the ability or talent to treat folk music like 'jazz standards' or to embellish the basic tunes, aren't in fact 'spiritually' butterfly collectors. We are just doing our humble best.

You shouldn't be discouraged at all, everyone starts off playing the straight tune, and every session needs people who do just that -- and who turn up and play!

Keep playing and enjoying it long enough (surely enjoyment is the reason we all do this?) and you'll hopefully find that your musical skills improve -- then in a few years you'll be telling beginners how to play music and put some extra lift and life into it :-)

Ian
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 12:44:44 PM by IanD »
Logged
Oakwood Model 4 D/G, Castagnari Dony D/G/#, Castagnari Tommy G/C, Baffetti Binci D/G, Hohner Preciosa D/G, Melos Bb/Eb, Lightwave SL5 and Kala California fretless basses

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5401
Re: Are notes Right / Wrong / or just different ?
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2012, 12:33:19 PM »

In some ways those who are really good dot readers are likely to have more problems as their instinct is to stick very precisely to playing a tune as writ.  If a atune is written with ornementation of one sort or another it will then be plaayed as such  with no leaway to  'make it your own'.

 Perhaps good dotists would  have more scope & feel more free & able to    slightly adjust  length of notes, 'play the gaps, add a wee bit of ornementation  & invent their own bass line  if working from a simple 'bare bones'  melody line  instead of a complicated score.

george
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".

Thrupenny Bit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6831
  • happily squeezing away in Devon
Re: Are notes Right / Wrong / or just different ?
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2012, 12:43:46 PM »

Don't be discouraged - just noodle/twiddle etc. when relaxing, let the mind wander.
Sometimes after I'm 'practised out' and have been bashing away at a tune and get tired, I inadvertantly let my mind wander with box in hand. At times it's the most useful of all practise.
Snatches of tunes pop into the box by themselves, or else a run I'm struggling with might solve itself..... OR, and little phrase of a tune gets played wrong but it sounds right! The variations only happen to me with tunes I really know well, so I know where I'm going ( from one phrase to the next ) but at times I sort of take an alternative route.
I find the individual twists or new variations often occur when messing at a slow speed, not really at 'playing' speed.
For those speed merchants who go flat out at all times, there's no space to fit in other notes or look for variations, remember 'Speed KIlls'  ;D
My thoughts anyway.....
Q

Logged
Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

IanD

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1662
  • Too many melodeons...
Re: Are notes Right / Wrong / or just different ?
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2012, 12:43:55 PM »

In some ways those who are really good dot readers are likely to have more problems as their instinct is to stick very precisely to playing a tune as writ.  If a atune is written with ornementation of one sort or another it will then be plaayed as such  with no leaway to  'make it your own'.

 Perhaps good dotists would  have more scope & feel more free & able to    slightly adjust  length of notes, 'play the gaps, add a wee bit of ornementation  & invent their own bass line  if working from a simple 'bare bones'  melody line  instead of a complicated score.

george

This is what classical musicians (and composers) *used* to do several hundred years ago, some of the great players (especially on violin) were feted for their improvisational/variation/ornamentation skills, and composers sometimes wrote bare scores on the assumption that the performers would do this.

Unfortunately most (not all) classical composer/musicians nowadays -- and many people who play "by the dots" -- assume that all of the intention of the composer is written down on the paper, and that's exactly what they should play without adding their own interpretation.

Folk music is just the same -- the basic tune is written down, but this is often really an "aide memoire", it tells you what to play but not how to play it. Playing it exactly as written is what a computer does from a MIDI file, and this always sounds lifeless and horrible -- even the version of Serpentiner I posted to try and show this, I later spent hours trying to get it to really sound "right" but gave up when the score ended up full of tied 32nd notes...
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 01:00:26 PM by IanD »
Logged
Oakwood Model 4 D/G, Castagnari Dony D/G/#, Castagnari Tommy G/C, Baffetti Binci D/G, Hohner Preciosa D/G, Melos Bb/Eb, Lightwave SL5 and Kala California fretless basses

Anahata

  • This mind intentionally left blank
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6361
  • Oakwood D/G, C/F Club, 1-rows in C,D,G
    • Treewind Music
Re: Are notes Right / Wrong / or just different ?
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2012, 01:20:40 PM »

In some ways those who are really good dot readers are likely to have more problems as their instinct is to stick very precisely to playing a tune as writ.  If a tune is written with ornementation of one sort or another it will then be played as such  with no leeway to  'make it your own'.

Some good dot readers are like that, but that's because they haven't developed any other way of learning music. A good folk musician who can read music will be constantly trying to work out what, in a printed version, is the basic tune and what is ornamentation and working out what they can get away with changing (if the want to) without damaging the tune. Ian's approach with Panjandrum, looking for as many versions as possible to get a consensus and a range of interpretations, is a good idea, but it still helps to have experience and common sense to pick the "best" by the right criteria.

Quote
Perhaps good dotists would  have more scope & feel more free... if working from a simple 'bare bones' melody line  instead of a complicated score.
Good idea, though sometimes hard to know what's tune and what's ornamentation when making that bare bones melody line.

This is what classical musicians (and composers) *used* to do several hundred years ago
...
Unfortunately most (not all) classical composer/musicians nowadays -- and many people who play "by the dots" -- assume that all of the intention of the composer is written down on the paper, and that's exactly what they should play without adding their own interpretation.

Folk music is just the same -- the basic tune is written down, but this is often really an "aide memoire", it tells you what to play but not how to play it

Exactly.
In early and baroque music, the freedom given to the players is much greater, in fact with early music the crossover to "folk" music (which it wouldn't have been called then) is quite blurred. In baroque music there is the figured bass which is a bass line with the equivalent of chord notation for accompanists to interpret how they like, and much freedom of ornamentation for soloists. As time goes on, classical music becomes more detailed and prescriptive about the actual notes played, but even in the 20th century there's a lot of scope for interpretation in rhythm, dynamics and speed. Classical music also has the same problem that folk music has, as orchestral scores get copied and "corrected" by successive generations of well meaning editors. Bahrenreiter recently published a complete set of the Beethoven symphonies transcribed directly from the composer's original manuscripts, and the differences from the versions "everyone knows and plays" are quite dramatic in places, so the "what Beethoven wrote" sounds "wrong"  :o It doesn't help, of course, that the composer himself may have made alterations later, and much detective work is needed to sort the mess out.

Even so the range of variations of folk tunes is much greater, presumably because so much of it is copied  by ear.
Logged
I'm a melodeon player. What's your excuse?
Music recording and web hosting: www.treewind.co.uk
Mary Humphreys and Anahata: www.maryanahata.co.uk
Ceilidh band: www.barleycoteband.co.uk

xgx

  • Bagpipes & Musette Boxes... and Banjos, luv 'em!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1096
Re: Are notes Right / Wrong / or just different ?
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2012, 01:24:09 PM »

(...)
Unfortunately most (not all) classical composer/musicians nowadays -- and many people who play "by the dots" -- assume that all of the intention of the composer is written down on the paper, and that's exactly what they should play without adding their own interpretation.
(...)

Suppose an assumption about an assumption and get pure supposition ... presumably  ;D

Play the music anyway you like ...in the safe and certain knowledge that sooner or later it will evoke an opinion ...and you, the player can decide how valid (or not ::)) that opinion may be.  :-*
Logged
Graham

 N Cambs/S Lincs - UK   :|glug + :|glug:|||: = :|bl

IanD

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1662
  • Too many melodeons...
Re: Are notes Right / Wrong / or just different ?
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2012, 01:38:08 PM »

(...)
Unfortunately most (not all) classical composer/musicians nowadays -- and many people who play "by the dots" -- assume that all of the intention of the composer is written down on the paper, and that's exactly what they should play without adding their own interpretation.
(...)

Suppose an assumption about an assumption and get pure supposition ... presumably  ;D

Play the music anyway you like ...in the safe and certain knowledge that sooner or later it will evoke an opinion ...and you, the player can decide how valid (or not ::)) that opinion may be.  :-*

Every classical musician I've ever heard play folk music -- at least, those with no background in or experience of playing it -- played it as written but brilliantly technically, and with the kind of expression (like holding on to especially *nice* notes with lots of rich vibrato, if it's a violin -- sorry, fiddle) that you'd expect them to use on classical music.

Unfortunately it sounds nothing like a good folk musician playing the same thing, especially if it's dance music...

Given the choice of the most technically brilliant soulful classical violinist or Flos Headford, which would you choose to dance to? (or listen to/play along with in a session)

I'm not being elitist here, I'm saying play the music and enjoy it :-)
Logged
Oakwood Model 4 D/G, Castagnari Dony D/G/#, Castagnari Tommy G/C, Baffetti Binci D/G, Hohner Preciosa D/G, Melos Bb/Eb, Lightwave SL5 and Kala California fretless basses

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10172
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: Are notes Right / Wrong / or just different ?
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2012, 01:43:48 PM »

I find this type of discussion a bit discouraging to be honest. I can see the point being made, but all of us who don't have the ability or talent to treat folk music like 'jazz standards' or to embellish the basic tunes, aren't in fact 'spiritually' butterfly collectors. We are just doing our humble best.

We all are - but that's no council for dispair. Just take your favourite, most familiar tune. Toss the dots if you have them - you don't need them any more.

Dive in, and second time through play something different - it might be playing a chord instead of a note, or reversing the order of notes 2-4 in a bar.  Try a different left hand chord. It really doesn't matter.  In-scale improvisation is incredibly forgiving, and there's no wrong way.

Try it with friends in the session - listen to their variation - respond to each other. Drop back to theme 4-5th time though as a statement that you are still folkies (though jazzers do that too).

If you like one of these diversions so much you play it in your solos - it becomes an 'arrangment'. But I prefer music de-ranged  ;)
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

xgx

  • Bagpipes & Musette Boxes... and Banjos, luv 'em!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1096
Re: Are notes Right / Wrong / or just different ?
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2012, 01:47:29 PM »

(...) I'm saying play the music and enjoy it :-)
Nowt contentious about that ;)

Chris... dot the tossers... way to go ;D
Logged
Graham

 N Cambs/S Lincs - UK   :|glug + :|glug:|||: = :|bl
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal