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Author Topic: Irish Scottish tunes popular in Quebec?  (Read 2473 times)

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DoninOhio

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Irish Scottish tunes popular in Quebec?
« on: February 04, 2012, 11:50:34 PM »

For you players familiar with Quebec Trad, I am curious what tunes from the Irish or Scottish genre are popular in Quebec. I have heard groups (or musicians) play the following:

Larry O'Gaff (as Gigue De LaDebauche)
Fermoy Lasses
Jig of Slurs
Ms McCleod
Out On The Ocean
Cooleys
Musical Priest
Salamanca
Jenny's Chickens

What are other Irish or Scottish tunes popular with Quebec players?

Don
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Stiamh

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Re: Irish Scottish tunes popular in Quebec?
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2012, 02:36:46 AM »

Loads of Irish and Scottish tunes have been part of the Québec tradition, adapted and transmogrified, for a long time. Sometimes just bits of them.

One example is the 3-part Scottish tune, The MacDonalds' March, which is played as a reel (can't remember the name) and is very popular, almost exactly as the tune appears in Kerr's, but with some slinky syncopation in the last part.

Another is La ronfleuse Gobeil, with a third part lifted from The Maid Behind the Bar.



Québécois

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Re: Irish Scottish tunes popular in Quebec?
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2012, 03:45:21 AM »

Yep. Many tunes were carried to Québec by the Irish and Scottish soldiers who were in the British army. Some tunes kept the same name, like St Anne's Reel, other titles have been changed but the tunes are basically the same, like, "Miss McLeod" which was recorded as "Reel de Hull"
http://www.collectionscanada.ca/obj/m2/f7/12663.mp3

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Mutt

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Re: Irish Scottish tunes popular in Quebec?
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2012, 04:29:20 AM »

Yep. Many tunes were carried to Québec by the Irish and Scottish soldiers who were in the British army. Some tunes kept the same name, like St Anne's Reel, other titles have been changed but the tunes are basically the same, like, "Miss McLeod" which was recorded as "Reel de Hull"
http://www.collectionscanada.ca/obj/m2/f7/12663.mp3

During the Famine, the great Canadian city was Montreal.  Along with New York and Boston, many Irish went there to escape. Since I can't remember my sources for such a broad statement, any Canadian friends who have more information should chime in here. My point only is that, as I understand it, the Irish impact on Quebec culture is significant.
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Andrel

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Re: Irish Scottish tunes popular in Quebec?
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2012, 05:35:55 AM »

Le Reel des sorcières, played by Les Frères Brunet on Trésors du Québec en Musique, is none other than Julia Delaney. A wonderful album, by the way.
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Re: Irish Scottish tunes popular in Quebec?
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2012, 12:35:03 PM »

Going back to Don's question, there's a difference between the tunes that were absorbed long ago and those that are popular now. Many players are perfectly happy to play the older transplanted tunes, in many cases not realizing, or sometimes refusing to believe, that they are not indigenous, but would avoid playing a contemporary Irish tune like the plague. Others are less fussy (less nationalistic) and some, esp. those enamoured of Joe Derrane, will tackle anything Irish that they fancy.

BTW a story going the rounds at the moment and creating considerable mirth is that a tune known for ages as "La Rachouédine" started life as "The Irish Wedding".

Québécois

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Re: Irish Scottish tunes popular in Quebec?
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2012, 06:28:53 PM »

BTW a story going the rounds at the moment and creating considerable mirth is that a tune known for ages as "La Rachouédine" started life as "The Irish Wedding".

Makes sense, phonetically at least! What would a "rachouédine" be anyways...

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Andy in Vermont

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Re: Irish Scottish tunes popular in Quebec?
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2012, 02:30:25 AM »

Going back to Don's question, there's a difference between the tunes that were absorbed long ago and those that are popular now. Many players are perfectly happy to play the older transplanted tunes, in many cases not realizing, or sometimes refusing to believe, that they are not indigenous, but would avoid playing a contemporary Irish tune like the plague. Others are less fussy (less nationalistic) and some, esp. those enamoured of Joe Derrane, will tackle anything Irish that they fancy.

So true!
And you mentioned MacDonald's March above -- one of my favorites.  The version that came into Quebec is from the (Acadian) Nova Scotian fiddler Joe Cormier, reworked by Denis Pepin for one-row accordion, and then learned by many fiddlers.  At least, when I heard fiddlers from Quebec city playing it, it was definitely Denis's version, and when I asked Denis, he credits Joe Cormier. As for the name, I've heard it called "MacDonald's" and I believe that some might call it Reel de Joe Cormier.  Whatever it's called, it is a hoot to play and the experience of learning it is a must for one-row box players looking to learn tunes outside of the Bminor/Dmajor spectrum -- it is in A mixolydian.

I've heard "Mason's Apron" played by Quebec city fiddlers, with distinctive Quebecois style.
Like you said, there are many tunes that are considered to be at the core of the nationalistic wing of trad, which many musicians would swear up-and-down are Quebecois tunes, when their roots have been more objectively traced to Irish or Scottish tunes.  La Grande Jigue Simple, for instance, has been traced back to Scottish pipe tunes, via Micmac or Huron fiddlers! There is a great documentary about this, but I can't seem to remember the title.  Of course there is no denying that the specific way(s) of playing La Grande Jigue are distinctively French-Canadian...

Love this topic!

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Re: Irish Scottish tunes popular in Quebec?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2012, 02:55:51 PM »

Yes Andy, this is what sets traditional music apart from "classical", it's a living heritage that gets transmitted and transformed by those who embrace it! And it's always very entertaining to listen to stories about where a tune comes from, or who may have "composed" it in the first place, also where the name comes from.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Irish Scottish tunes popular in Quebec?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2012, 03:06:51 PM »

Yes Andy, this is what sets traditional music apart from "classical", it's a living heritage that gets transmitted and transformed by those who embrace it! And it's always very entertaining to listen to stories about where a tune comes from, or who may have "composed" it in the first place, also where the name comes from.
Mostly I agree with you. However, Ian Dedic's comments here are also very relevant:
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,8855.msg110119.html#msg110119
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Andy in Vermont

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Re: Irish Scottish tunes popular in Quebec?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2012, 07:53:25 PM »

Yes Andy, this is what sets traditional music apart from "classical", it's a living heritage that gets transmitted and transformed by those who embrace it! And it's always very entertaining to listen to stories about where a tune comes from, or who may have "composed" it in the first place, also where the name comes from.
Mostly I agree with you. However, Ian Dedic's comments here are also very relevant:
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,8855.msg110119.html#msg110119

And I mostly agree with what Ian said, but think it still falls short of the most controversial aspect, that the "wrongness" depends on its source, as heard/identified by the listner who declares it to be "wrong" (ian in the Canal scenario).  But then it comes down to questions of values and intentions that might not be as reduceable as in the Canal scenario, where many diato players still have the composer's own playing "stuck" in their heads!  Similar situations arise w Messervier tunes in Quebec.
I agree that if their are features of a tune worth preserving, we must do what we can to assert those features.  I hate what US contra players have done to Reel Eugene and I refuse to buckle to their changes from the Pigeon family version of the tune!

Steve_freereeder

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Re: Irish Scottish tunes popular in Quebec?
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2012, 10:23:30 AM »

I hate what US contra players have done to Reel Eugene and I refuse to buckle to their changes from the Pigeon family version of the tune!
Reel Eugene is one of my favourite tunes and I hope I play it in the Quebecois style to the best of my abilities. I'm now curious to know how the US contra musicians play it, just to ensure that I'm not doing it like that. Are there any Youtube examples you can point me to please?
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Theo

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Re: Irish Scottish tunes popular in Quebec?
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2012, 10:32:23 AM »

I hate what US contra players have done to Reel Eugene and I refuse to buckle to their changes from the Pigeon family version of the tune!
Reel Eugene is one of my favourite tunes and I hope I play it in the Quebecois style to the best of my abilities. I'm now curious to know how the US contra musicians play it, just to ensure that I'm not doing it like that. Are there any Youtube examples you can point me to please?

I've been listening to some US contra music recently, and while there is lots of good playing there is this tendency in some bands to have a percussionist providing the rhythm and the fiddle player seems to be just playing the notes if you see what I mean.  One of the things I love about good box and fiddle players is the way they exploit the instrument to put a great driving rhythm into the melody,
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Andy in Vermont

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Re: Irish Scottish tunes popular in Quebec?
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2012, 02:05:57 PM »

One of the things I love about good box and fiddle players is the way they exploit the instrument to put a great driving rhythm into the melody,

I agree 100% Theo -- and I'll go so far as to say that the tunes I play best are the ones that I've played a lot with good fiddlers -- something about the pulse of the bowing (and the bellows) that, when done well, makes or breaks the tune for me.

As for the US contra band sounds, there is of course a lot of variation.  Some of it is to my liking, some of it is not (and I feel the same way about callers).

As for specific examples of Reel Eugene played the way I _don't_ like -- now that is a dilemma, Steve!  I do want to give you an example, but that would mean seeking out an example of what I try so hard to avoid!!! (Doubly hard, since my dislike comes from live examples, not experiences on YouTube that I could simply relocate.)  When I take a break from reading tonight, I'll see if I can find an example.  For the counter-example, track down the Freres Pigeon recording.  Also, there is a historical recording of Arthur Pigeon, perhaps on Virtual Gramophone.

If I had more time, I'd simply post a recording of myself playing it, as learned from a dyed-in-the-wool trad player up North.
-Andy

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Re: Irish Scottish tunes popular in Quebec?
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2012, 03:18:08 PM »

I hate what US contra players have done to Reel Eugene and I refuse to buckle to their changes from the Pigeon family version of the tune!
Reel Eugene is one of my favourite tunes and I hope I play it in the Quebecois style to the best of my abilities. I'm now curious to know how the US contra musicians play it, just to ensure that I'm not doing it like that. Are there any Youtube examples you can point me to please?

It's one of my favorite tunes too.  I've contradanced in the U.S. regularly for over ten years and I've heard Reel Eugene played just like it is played on Commando Trad 5.  It's is inaccurate to say that US contra dance bands play it any certain style (that you might want to avoid) because there is enormous variation in the types of bands and types of music used for contradance.  The implication is that the Quebecois style is not suitable for contradance and that is very much not the case.
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Andy in Vermont

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Re: Irish Scottish tunes popular in Quebec?
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2012, 03:36:10 PM »

Quote

It's one of my favorite tunes too.  I've contradanced in the U.S. regularly for over ten years and I've heard Reel Eugene played just like it is played on Commando Trad 5.  It's is inaccurate to say that US contra dance bands play it any certain style (that you might want to avoid) because there is enormous variation in the types of bands and types of music used for contradance.  The implication is that the Quebecois style is not suitable for contradance and that is very much not the case.

Above, I clearly stated that there is variation.  However, I'll underscore: I've heard it played by dozens of contra musicians w a specific variation that is definitively different than what you hear on the Commando trad video; this is of course unnecessary for contradancing! Yet I've heard it in MA, in Maine, in NY, and in VT.  It surprises me that you are familiar with how it is played in QC, yet have not heard or noticed a difference south of the border.
As a side note, I had learned the tune in 2002 in QC.  I was at the NE Squeeze-In and played it on the porch w 2 MA-based musicians (one of whom is Quebecois), who remarked, emphatically, how refreshing it was to play it in QC fashion, rather than the way it is typically played in MA.
It's not a question of right/wrong, it's a matter of expectation on the part of the listener.  Sometimes it is pleasant to have yourexpectations thwarted, while in other contexts it can annoy.

A link to the Pigeons playing the tune: http://www.archambault.ca/100-ans-de-musique-traditionnelle-quebecoise-ACH000151002-en-pr
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 03:58:42 PM by Andy in Vermont »
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