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[Andrew Wigglesworth]

at the risk of being boo"d and hissed off the forum, , we dont realy play for dancing, (not that we wouldnt ! we are just not at that stage yet, or have a caller ) so we are concentrating on playing for performance at the moment.

ducks for cover ....

It's actually the same. The folk tunes are really intimately linked to the dances.

Say tune number one plays with swing. Number two is very square in it's phrasing. The "non-dance" band meets in some pub on a Wednesday, and someone say "wouldn't it be nice to play that 'two' tune with a bit of swing"?  Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But it's no longer folk music as you have now detached from its roots.

Few beers, now perhaps the idea comes to medley the two together. Clever, but again you've broken a link because neither of the dances would feel right to the other rhythm. That isn't to say there aren't tunes that medley well. But there's a judgement to be made. You make it with your feet.

If you're going to leave your roots behind - why not go all the way and medley from a 4/4 reel_{4 letter word} into a 3/4 jig_{three letters!}.  Utterly undanceable, I'd say jarring on the ears at the "join" but others believe they are being really clever in their music.

Why, there's a "folk" group near me who've "arranged" can't you dance the polka as a bosssanova   I find it alien enough as a performed song, when they play it for dance .. well it's time for a beer

So getting to dances, especially to a traditional, or sensitive band, is the best thing you can do.

PS: The ever eclectic Ed has just posted this Swedish march on facebook - it sounds a bit wacky on that stratocaster - but still danceable - so in my book still folk music 

Can I just send you a virtual hug   

[Alan C]

I asked myself this recently - here's a post on another site with some novel ways of telling the difference - I have yet to try them out . . .

http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/24314.

[Theo]

I asked myself this recently - here's a post on another site with some novel ways of telling the difference - I have yet to try them out . . .

http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/24314.

Yes some good descriptions there, but...

I think those who know these rhythms will understand the descriptions, but for someone trying to learn them for the first time they will need to hear example as well.

[george garside]

I agree with Theo on this one.  The descriptions on the session website are  very good but only in the sense of preaching to the converted!     There is a great deal more to  getting a reel, jig or whatever right for dancing than  just knowing the theoretical  count for 4/4 6/8 etc.  Its down to subleties  such as 'playing the gaps'  providing just the right 'lift' (gravity brings them down the music takes them up and its very painful for dancers to try to hover!) making subtle changes in speed to give the dancers a little bit more time  to complete a manouvre   and nudging the speed up or down a bit to suite the age & ability of  the dancers, Even giving some welly to the last 8 bars  of  a set if you know the dancers will appreciate it!. All of which  comes fairly naturally to mussicians with loads of appropreate dance experience but can present real difficulties to (dare I say it classically trained ) musicians  who are too busy counting beats to look, listen and adjust.

george

[Graham Spencer]

And not everything in 6/8 is a jig - there's a world of difference between a jig and a two-step and a 6/8 march, but it's amazing how many players don't realise that.  Come to that, not everything in 2/4 is a polka, nor 4/4 a march, etc etc etc............

[Québécois]

And not everything in 6/8 is a jig - there's a world of difference between a jig and a two-step and a 6/8 march, but it's amazing how many players don't realise that.  Come to that, not everything in 2/4 is a polka, nor 4/4 a march, etc etc etc............

Looks like you have a thorough understanding of the concept of traditional music 

[george garside]

And not everything in 6/8 is a jig - there's a world of difference between a jig and a two-step and a 6/8 march, but it's amazing how many players don't realise that.  Come to that, not everything in 2/4 is a polka, nor 4/4 a march, etc etc etc............

Looks like you have a thorough understanding of the concept of traditional music 

[george garside]

sorrry  -pressed 'post' before I had written anything!  so here goes!

a now deceased  mouthie player of some renown was once asked 'how do you tell the difference between playing a jig and a 6/8 march'.  His answer was something on the lines of ' Close your eyes & imagine yourself in a pipe band behind a 7ft tall drum major.  Imagine him starting off the beat on the drum  and picture in your mind that enormous backside swirling the kilt as the band march on & you won't ever get a 6/8 march wrong'   For those who knew him the advice came from the late Will Atkinson , mouthie player supreme (and pretty good on a Shand Morino as well)

george

[Larry Stout]

So far this thread has concentrated on getting the rhythms right.  I need some help getting the harmony acceptable.  The three chord trick works fine for major keys but what do I do with minors?  This is mostly learning how to use the bases in the left hand.

[Steve_freereeder]

So far this thread has concentrated on getting the rhythms right.  I need some help getting the harmony acceptable.  The three chord trick works fine for major keys but what do I do with minors?  This is mostly learning how to use the bases in the left hand.

The three chord trick works for minor keys too, although there is more room for variations.

Let's just take the D/G melodeon-friendly key of E minor as an example:
The three chords are E minor (tonic), B major (fifth) and A minor (fourth). However, you can sometimes substitute B minor instead of B major, and C major instead of A minor. It depends on the tune. The basic rule is - if it sounds OK to you, it probably sounds OK to everyone else.

On a standard 8-bass D/G box, you will have Em and C major chords, and nearly always your B chord will be B major, although some boxes will have it tuned to B minor (usually a customised option).

If your B chord is B major, you can fudge a minor chord by playing Bm7: push B bass note with a push D major chord.
Similarly you can fudge A minor by playing Am7: pull C major chord with a pull A bass.

If you have an instrument with a stop to remove the thirds from the chords, you can then have bare, neutral chords for A and B, which can fit into places where you would use A minor or B minor.

[Chris Ryall]

Steve's spot on as ever in terms of 'acceptable'. And also practical: basically we often have to "fudge" on melodeon.  This thread is titled "theory" and in theory terms "major" is pretty straightforward.  "Minor" is a frankly a completely different ball park ..

We all have the concept of the third note of the scale being flattened. But even "folk music" offers about 6 different choices for the other scale notes, western folk at least 3 common types, wider music and jazz .. I daren't go on! The issue for this thread is that the different minor flavours need different chords. So "in brief" and using the E "minor" scale of a D/G box ..
 

1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8
E	F#	G	A	B	C\C#	D\D#	E

1. G_natural is what makes the scale "minor". (a G#=> E major)
2. The bottom half of the scale is pretty well behaved in Western music
3. There are three common options for scale notes 6 and 7. (C# with D# is essentially "jazz")

The last point might seem weird, but we do it in every session. Some E minor tunes have a C in them, some a C# - yes/no?  The chords for a tune come from its scale  (you generally take alternate notes). So the chords for these tunes are different - that's why a bass chord feels OK for one minor tune, but not for another. And your ear is a good guide to this.

My own "fast fix" is to look whether the tune uses C or C#

C  it is in the simple 'relative minor' of G scale. Use Em, *A_bass *B_bass. C works too
C# it is in the "dorian" minor of your D scale. I use Em and D major. A works too. You'll hear C chords used in sessions - theoretically "blue" and wrong, but common practice even amongst the "hard Irish"

You will also encounter tunes that have C_nat and a D#. These are option 3 - harmonic minor - and common in European stuff. Use Em, *A_bass and B major. That's why your box has that B major chord on the push!

Notes on those "awkward" chords
*A - a simple bass always works, A+C+E basses make you an Am chord, A bass+ C chord on pull often works
*B -  a simple bass always works, in most (not 'harmonic') folk tunes try B bass+D chord on push. Your ear will tell you if it works. If your kit can take the middle not our of  chords - problem solved!

The concept of minorness is explored on my "modes" page, and this web site is also good.

[Larry Stout]

Thanks everybody.  This is the kind of information I was looking for.  I'll need to do some translating because i have an A/D instead of a D/G, but that just transposes the examples up a fifth (or down a fourth).