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Author Topic: six and eight reed combos  (Read 10476 times)

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Owen Woods

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2012, 11:28:16 PM »

I've been more than a bit intrigued, and thanks, Paul, for posting all the pics and links.  Sure wish I was in a position to come north for some closer inspiration. 

You thinking of trying your hand at a D/C#? Go for it :P
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blafleur

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2012, 11:30:10 PM »

I actually thinking of trying a 2 row, but the ones Paul showed are one rows. (???

Owen Woods

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2012, 12:35:41 AM »

I actually thinking of trying a 2 row, but the ones Paul showed are one rows. (???)

Trudat. But were there not some 1.5 rows in there? D with  C# half row would be pretty awesome.

Personally I would love to get my hands on one of these boxes. And I wish that someone would start making them again.
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pgroff

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2012, 01:00:50 AM »

I've been more than a bit intrigued, and thanks, Paul, for posting all the pics and links.  Sure wish I was in a position to come north for some closer inspiration. 

Now, am I understanding that the 8 voice box has 8 reeds sounding for a single button?  How do you get that much air out of that size box?  Single note playing only?

Hi Bryan, my source for some of the best music on the internet!

It would be great to meet you and look at accordions; I would appreciate your insights as a builder. 

Yes, the black 13-key, 4 bass Baldoni* and the J. Cunningham 10-key, 2 bass Baldoni are both true 8 voice machines, with 4 double-sided reed blocks on the melody side, and each melody button opening airways to 8 banks of reeds.

I'm not a player on the level of PJ Conlon or William Sullivan (two great players, RIP, whose music on Baldonis like these inspires me).  But as best I can, I personally use doubled melody keys very often (octaves and bits of harmony) and the basses also.  The 8 voice boxes are indeed somewhat air hungry and also a lot of the internal volume of the box when closed is taken up by those reedblocks!  So they are demanding both in terms of set-up (should not leak, should have high quality reeds and valves in good shape, etc) and also in terms of playing technique (air button control, control of bellows, playing somewhat staccato and with less than maximum pressure, and as mory mentioned recently playing from a "more open" default bellows position).  However, my own accordions are far from airtight, I tend to do the minimum with repairs and replacing parts especially when old, and I still find them a joy to play.

*That Black Baldoni 13-key is actually a D/C# and does have melody buttons in 2 rows (10 + 3) but 1 row of 13 (double) pallets on the metal soundboard. The O'Byrne DeWitt Paolo shown grille-off above is a full two-row (19 key) D/C#.  We've had some other threads here on melnet with pics of other 2 row D/C# boxes.  Stephen Chambers very usefully has described the boxes with rows of just a few buttons in terms of fractions or decimels (thus the Black Baldoni 13 key would be "1.3 row"). 


PG
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 01:27:50 AM by pgroff »
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pgroff

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2012, 01:07:50 AM »

I actually thinking of trying a 2 row, but the ones Paul showed are one rows. (???)

Trudat. But were there not some 1.5 rows in there? D with  C# half row would be pretty awesome.

Personally I would love to get my hands on one of these boxes. And I wish that someone would start making them again.

Hi ukebert,

Cross posted. ..  Re: your second point, the Saltarelle Tara LMMH for sale in London ought to make a decent D/C# with two very full rows!  And if you can stand a stepped keyboard, you might pick up a cheap used 3 voice (LMM) Italian organetto abruzzese with 9 + 3 melody keys, and put in D/C# reeds -- that could be a good way to try D/C#.

PG
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 01:26:55 AM by pgroff »
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mory

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2012, 10:52:30 AM »

More cross posting sorry guys. From the comments regarding the DG Tara LMMH this might all be a pointless exercise, it doesn't seem like anyone on here (generalization alert) well three people anyway, could handle the weight of an 8 voice one row if they can't handle a 4 voice 2 row AtB mory (ducks for cover)
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Lars

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2012, 12:42:54 PM »

A couple of takes on the 6 voice pallets systems.

1: My 6 voice Baldoni-Bartoli in D, LMMMMH (tuned -12, 0, +12, +20 with L and H being 0 as well). Bellow frame measures 28 cm x 17.5 cm - what I would call just about the ideal size. Plenty of space for 3 reedblocks and mechanism/pallets, but small enough to play all night (when you want to be loud and obnoxious;)). The original mechanism in this box was worn out (it had the pallets mounted with central posts to make them lift 100% directly up), so a new mechanism was fitted a few years ago, as well as having the original LLMMMM setup changed to LMMMMH.
The mechanism you see was bought new in Castelfidardo (can't remember the shops name!), and it's very simple, and very effecient! This just works, no wobbling, no extra noise, just plenty of lift when you press the buttons. There's a single spring mounted under the lever, directly under the button. The buttons are 17mm, and are spaced 24 mm apart. More than most modern builders would go for, but it's actually quite nice, due to the smooth action. If the action was much harder, and more wobbly, I might find the buttons and their spacing a bit too large, luckily that's not the case.
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Lars

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2012, 12:51:31 PM »

2: The BIG box - 6 voice Maugein Freres 21 button 12 bass. C#/F# (or possibly high pitch C/F) LLMMMM. This is an excellent example of why NOT to place two rows of pallets on a 6 voice box. It's just way too big to play properly, thus the reason I never did anything more than unwrap it, say "holy smokes!" and put it in the pile of 'never-to-be-completed' projects. The outside row of levers are mounted directly to the levers, and the inside row is fitted with counter-levers. Quite clever system, though the dimentions are so great that the buttons needs to be pushed in quite a bit (as it is now, anyways). The pearl buttons are 16 mm, spaced 19 mm. apart on each row. The bellow frame measures a whopping 32.5 cm x 23 cm. 6 reedblocks inside, with no couplers.
 
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pgroff

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2012, 04:00:04 PM »

Hi all,

Lars, Thanks for adding photos of a postwar Baldoni 6 voice with even more recent action.  I knew a fellow in the 1980s that had the twin of your 1-row, and in fact since it was for sale maybe it's the same one that made its way to you. Very nice instrument!

That should be a good model for what Mike might be able to get built easily today.  In recreating a new box built to that general design, I would think *at least* 2 more pallets could be squeezed into the same row of pallets on the soundboard, for a total of 12 long pallets, with no increase in overall size of the casework of the box.  That would allow a 10 button outside row with 2 buttons on the inside row for accidentals, or an 11 button outside row with a single inside row button for accidentals. 

Here's my dream for a modern D/C# (or G/F# or C/B, or in fact any key system of "main diatonic row plus helper accidentals"):

A light, compact, great sounding and fast modern box about the size and dimensions of Lars' 6 voice 10-key box, but with very well-ventilated lightweight metal grillework (or even open pallets).  5 or 6 voices, and possibly no switches at all -- or possibly stops.  A flat, enclosed keyboard on the melody side with 16 buttons in one and a half rows (11 + 5).  Bass-side casework built to be extremely lightweight and narrow, with 6 buttons in a single vertical column, long bar/lever for the air key and a huge air-key pallet opening.  Accommodating 16 pallets in a single row on the melody soundboard, in a box the size of Lars', would necessitate some very precise design and craftsmanship, and maybe reedplates ground on the edges to be narrower as I've heard may be done by some makers today.  Here are a couple of 6-voice boxes I previously owned that come close to what I specify above, but my ideal would have one more button in the outside row on the melody side and another 2 bass buttons in the same vertical column. Both are pretty compact for what they offer in voices and helper accidentals (though both are really still "enhanced 1-row boxes), and the Walters is actually designed to accommodate an extra reedblock, with the soundboard pre-drilled with extra holes that would bring it up to an 8-voice ( if that extra reedblock were fitted; cf. the Gallagher box above).

PG

« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 04:49:53 PM by pgroff »
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mory

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2012, 10:17:12 AM »

Hi Paul
What would be the layout for your DC# then  AtB mory
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pgroff

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2012, 12:39:31 PM »

Hi mory,

Hope you don't mind if I give a more general answer here, so all readers will have the context.  I figure you are only looking for the last four paragraphs below and will not need to read the first part of this post.

The melody keyboards of some early 1-row, 10-button, Irish-American boxes had a duplicated dominant (sol) note of the scale on first button draw and second button press (as with today's 4-stop Hohners).  But most of the Irish-American 1-row boxes I've seen have the following standard layout, which is also what you would expect for the central 10 buttons of a row of buttons in a typical Irish style box such as a Paolo Soprani etc.  Notes for each button shown as  (press / draw) and viewed as if looking down on the keyboard, lower pitch notes to the left.  Since the 1-row boxes were sometimes made in C, G, or other keys as well as in D, I'll write the notes as follows to indicate the pitch relative to whatever the major scale of the box:


mi/la   sol/ti (si)   do/re   mi/fa   sol/la  do/ti (si)   mi/re   sol/fa   do/la  mi/ti (si)


Here in letter-named notes are some of the traditional layouts for D/C# boxes, with notes for each button shown as (press / draw) and viewed as if looking down on the keyboard, lower pitch notes to the left.

13 key:

                                    G#/A#   C#/C   F/D#
F#/B    A/C#    D/E    F#/G    A/B    D/C#    F#/E    A/G    D/B    F#/C#


15 key:

                           F/F#   G#/A#  C#/C   F/D#   G#/F#
F#/B    A/C#    D/E    F#/G    A/B    D/C#    F#/E     A/G    D/B    F#/C#


19 key (quite common post - WW2):

    G#/C    C#/D#  F/F#   G#/A#  C#/C   F/D#   G#/F#  C#/A#   F/C     
F#/B    A/C#    D/E    F#/G    A/B    D/C#     F#/E     A/G       D/B     F#/C#


The 13 key D/C# layout has all 12 notes of the ET chromatic scale, though some of them only in one octave, and has the middle octave C# duplicated in two bellows directions.  The 15 key layout was a nice compromise of size and features for those who wanted (or still want?) to play Irish tunes with the sound you get from 6 or more voices, since all the pallets can be in one row on the soundboard in a fairly compact box; notably it has the useful G# and F natural notes in two octaves and also a useful duplicated draw F# in two octaves.  The 19 key layout has C natural in low and high (as well as the middle) octaves.  Some interesting, early (prototype?) 19 key D/C# boxes had the pallets all in a single very long row, but usually the boxes with 19 or more melody keys were built with two rows of pallets on the soundboard, and thus rarely had 6 voices. With all these layouts, C#/D players would have little trouble finding the notes on the C# row -- but the fingerings often have to be different on the D/C# to play the same passages.

Some D/C# boxes have 17 keys, some have 21 or 23 keys.  I don't think I've ever seen one with 16 keys (11 + 5) but I think 16 pallets in one row on the soundboard should be practical in a well-proportioned, compact box, and I personally like the idea of adding an extra button (with the low notes D/G) to the 15 key layout above, to get the low G draw note for fiddle tunes and also the low D mostly used to grab an octave.

I also am interested in transposed versions of the D/C# box concept, with the rows in G/F#, C/B, etc.  Particularly for a box in the keys of G/F# I think 11 buttons rather than 10 in the main row would expand options for playing tunes in the common keys.  If these 16 key boxes could be made, it's possible that players of other kinds of music, using other key systems, who want a multi-voice sound could also find use for them, with customized reed layouts of various types.

On the bass side, six buttons in a vertical column wouldn't add to the size and weight of the casework (see how narrow and cut-away some early Baldonis, like the Cunningham box, were made!) and the reeds for 6 bass buttons needn't be too heavy.  The traditional boxes, usually with 2 or 4 bass buttons, tended to have a lot of reeds for the basses, but I would vote for the extra pair of bass buttons with fewer reeds for each of the triads.

Obviously this is just my own view, since I'm answering your question here, based on my personal interest in the tradition and sound of the older D/C# boxes with 6 or more voices and my personal interest in exploring G/F# etc.  More interesting to most of us might be to consider what Joe Derrane, or some of the brilliant Quebecois players, recommend for a modern D/C# layout!

Paul Groff







« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 06:21:23 PM by pgroff »
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pgroff

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2012, 10:10:50 AM »

. . . re six and eight voice D/C# combos. . .  I've been jotting down reed combinations mentioned in past posts. Thus far I have:

LLMMMH
LMMMHH
LLMMMM
LMMMMH

For six reed config.


Hi again Mike,

We can add to your list LMMMMM, and also LLMMHH which was recently found by a friend of mine in a 6 voice Baldoni.

PG
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 01:18:43 PM by pgroff »
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Owen Woods

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2012, 11:34:09 AM »

Hi again Mike,

We can add to your list LLMMHH, recently found by a friend of mine in a 6 voice Baldoni.

PG

Wow!
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Mike Hirst

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2012, 10:09:16 PM »

Paul,

the information that is being shared through this thread is invaluable. The biggest hold up at the moment is finding the finance for the project.

I've been looking at off the shelf options from Giustozzi. I've had them build me things before and I like the way they work.

This model reminds my of some of the old Walters/Baldoni instruments:



http://www.giustozzi.it/ws/index.php?route=product/product&path=24_50&product_id=155

It would make a good four voice D/C#. I'm not sure what the standard config would be, but I see no reason why it should not be set up  LMMM.

I recently came across the image attached below. In the light of our discussion re six reed pallet mechanisms the dual pallet mechanism in the pictured six stop single row is of interest.

ATB

Mike





« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 10:26:18 PM by Mike Hirst »
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pgroff

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2012, 03:31:09 PM »

Hi Mike and all,

A slightly off-topic update to the parts of this thread that covered some interesting types of action found in the early Baldoni and Walters accordions.  Here's a spectacular Ranco piano accordion now listed on ebay, stamped 1927 on the reedblocks and evidently shown in an exposition in 1928, that is one example of top quality technology and craftsmanship (not to mention decoration) for that time.  The superb photographs illustrate the action very well, with 3 of the pallets being lifted by aluminum levers that slide through a leather washer (and having a second lever each to keep the pallet properly oriented to the soundboard).  Many details of the construction of this piano box (though its only a 4-voice) are very interesting to compare with the Baldonis and Walters from late 1920s through the 1930s. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/150830685626

PG
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pgroff

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2012, 03:38:11 PM »

And since Hugh has published the photos, it would be good to link to this thread the specifications of the wonderful Baldoni-Bartoli "Radio-Tone" box.  The Radio-Tone is a 6-voice, 1-row box in D voiced LLMMHH, and has an action with a single pallet per button,  very similar to the 6 voice JJ Dwyer Baldoni-Bartoli illustrated above -- but also like the 13 key black B-B shown above in having metal eyelets instead of leather washers for the levers to slide through.  The celluloid grilles of all three boxes are fretted in a similar pattern, though the Radio-Tone has a different pattern of white paint and rhinestones applied to its grille.  The photos are here:

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,9598.0.html

Paul Groff
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 06:20:54 PM by pgroff »
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RPr

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2012, 05:40:46 PM »

 I think we should all keep in mind that it has only been quite recently, since the advent inexpensive tuning meters, that we have had the luxury of easily tuning everyone to a standard pitch. Prior to that, a pitch pipe, tuning fork or reed instrument usually served well enough for most groups.

Though some people are quite sensitive to changes in standard pitch; the changes to standard pitch seem to be driven by instrument dynamics; rather than concerns about the voice.

For some, when they find the piece does not meet their vocal range, they simply change keys. 
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pgroff

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2012, 03:41:05 PM »

Hi Mike and all,

Just to cross-reference, I thought it might be helpful to add to this thread some links to a couple of new threads where there are pics of interesting action designs posted.

Above in this thread there are already pics of a 13-key Baldoni-Bartoli that has 8 voices and two pallets per button.  Also there is a link to the thread discussing an unlabeled 6-voice box with a different kind of action that also has two pallets per button:

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,3998

The Likely Baldoni-Bartoli, also 6-voice, has an action similar to that unlabeled box.  Note there is a separate spring for each pallet (two springs per button):

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,11144.0.html

And the Corbett Walters, an 8-voice box, also has an action with two pallets per button, but different from the above boxes:

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,11281.0.html

PG
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 03:45:25 PM by pgroff »
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pgroff

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2013, 11:51:35 PM »

Here's another example of six voices and 15 keys crammed into possibly the smallest case practical, without miniaturizing the reedplates.  An unlabeled box very similar to some 1940s Baldoni-Bartolis, presented here:

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,13731

See photos below of the pallets and button levers.  The voicing is MMLHMM with a coupler (now working!) to take out LH, and the bellows dimensions are 6 1/2" X 11 5/8"

PG
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pgroff

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Re: six and eight reed combos
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2017, 01:54:43 PM »

Here are a couple more 8 voice boxes to compare with other examples in this topic:

"Jack" Baldoni, LMMMMMMH

Big white 15-key Walters, LLMMMMMM

More info on the big white 15-key Walters posted in the Walters history thread:
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,13549.msg167376.html#msg167376


PG
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