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Author Topic: Another would-be B/C player bites the dust  (Read 9789 times)

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Stiamh

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Another would-be B/C player bites the dust
« on: April 18, 2012, 05:17:16 PM »

I've previously reported my observations of people who claim to have tried the B/C box and thrown in the towel - after all of two or three playings. Here's fresh evidence of the phenomenon:

This is a vintage Hohner, Black Dot, Double Ray B/C button accordion.

Quote
I purchased this in 2009, thinking that playing the Irish Accordion would augment my fiddle playing.  After I purchased it, I took it to, "The Button Box" and had it thoroughly gone over and cleaned.  [...]  When I got it home I played it twice and realized I should stick with the fiddle!  So, it has been in my closet since.

So to all those who are persisting with the B/C system, pat yourselves on the back. A much harder instrument to master than people imagine.   :|glug

AirTime

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Re: Another would-be B/C player bites the dust
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2012, 05:35:42 PM »

Geez ... twice!

That's kind of pathetic.  ???

Melodeon playing is easy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OcIvI-VIuk
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Theo

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Re: Another would-be B/C player bites the dust
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2012, 05:42:46 PM »

Melodeon playing is easy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OcIvI-VIuk

Wow, he is so good you can hardly see his fingers move. ;D ;D
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Québécois

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Re: Another would-be B/C player bites the dust
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2012, 07:19:24 PM »

So to all those who are persisting with the B/C system, pat yourselves on the back. A much harder instrument to master than people imagine.   :|glug
Even when one knows how to play well on a "standard" box like D/G, going to semitone is a challenge. Probably because the brains keeps trying to fallback to a skill it already knows, as it happens for everything else.

I am still a starter on B/C, it takes patience, some keys are easier to play than others. D is terrible! G is a bit easier. I like the "bouncy" effect that we get when playing a tune, compared to a fourth (quint?) tuned box.

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strad

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Re: Another would-be B/C player bites the dust
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2012, 09:19:34 PM »

And then, all of a sudden, last Thursday I played along with two accordion people doing 2/4 pipe marches (tunes I've never tried on the B/C/C#) and got nearly every note right. So I am making progress after all!

Nigel 
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Gromit

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Re: Another would-be B/C player bites the dust
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2012, 11:38:06 PM »

"When I got it home I played it twice and realized I should stick with the fiddle!"

I would have thought that after learning to play the fiddle it would have been a doddle or maybe he's worn himself out with all the fiddling.
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TomB

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Re: Another would-be B/C player bites the dust
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2012, 12:31:54 AM »

I've tried a digi box a couple of times but found it too difficult, OK for morris I suppose but not good for proper music. I'll stick to my BC  :||: >:E >:E

..er, now where was my coat..  ;D
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Another would-be B/C player bites the dust
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2012, 06:24:49 AM »

Had a go at C#/D when I bought my C#/D/G off Ed. Have to say it was most impressive when he demo'd it. But it's not me. I'm left handed, addicted to bass runs and crossed chords. 

I quietly toddled down to Chalap in the Cevennes, and did Francois Heim's improvisation course.  ....  I can still recall my astonishment and pleasure "having a go" (1:00am) at Greensleeves "Coltrane style". "Bloody heck, Grommit! Wherever did those notes come from"? 

The answer is now known to be "the C# row mostly".  AFAIK our bassist had set off in D minor, and I'd gone to (almost) F blues scale  on the dominant chord. Nearly all pull, so you could play something passable with a milk bottle ;)  But it was nothing like this  ::)
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Prestidigitator

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Re: Another would-be B/C player bites the dust
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2012, 06:51:09 AM »

Melodeon playing is easy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OcIvI-VIuk

Wow, he is so good you can hardly see his fingers move. ;D ;D

I'm afraid I don't like the colour of that instrument.

I'd prefer to show off my talents playing one of these:-

http://www.schneeberg-harmonika.de/selbstspielende-harmonika/

which no doubt has a much faster action.
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george garside

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Re: Another would-be B/C player bites the dust
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2012, 10:25:31 AM »

the BC has to be approached  a bit differently from the DG as it is completely different - but only just!

I have found some or all of the following helps  those wanting  take up the BC  from a DG background.

- dont think of the BC as being  a box just for Irish music- it is chromatic and  whatever can be played on existing DG can be played just as well on a bc  ,albeit with limited bass but with the bonus of several kys being available.  So start of with whatever tunes you already play on a DG.

Some difficulty can be experienced by DG players who do a lot of cross rowing (on DG)   as this is very different to the more logical BC fingering which is crosss row for anything other than B or C.  Those who play the DG (?mostly) 'on the row' seem to have less diffficulty adapting to the BC.

Assuming a DG player  has the ability to play all the notes on a row in the right order from chin end to foot end he/she will be able to play a BC in B & C!

If  the would be conversionalist  is a clever sod  and can play the DG in A (?minus G#) the key of G on a BC will be a doddle - its exactly the same as A on a DG exept that the F# falls readily to hand on the B row.

At this stage you have more or less cracked it!  Think of the C row as the main road forming the basis of all other keys i.e. you proceed up or down the main road  (starting at a different point according to desired key)  and 'divert' onto the B row once , twice or thrice to play in G D or A.

If you are fortunate enough to have a BCC# you can then play in G D & A with Bb Eb & Ab  thrown in free of charge  by doing the same thing  using the CC# rows rather than the BC rows.

Like learning any instrument you need  a modicum of musicality ( i.e. be able to hum or whistle a tune or two)  but more importantly to develop the manual dexterity  that is requiredto opperate the instrument (its a machine)  without concious thought  eg you have to be able to reacch the next note in a tune just as quickly if it is one button away or 6!

hope this helps somebody somewhere who is thinking of giving up on the semitone box.

george
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nfldbox

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Re: Another would-be B/C player bites the dust
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2012, 02:51:07 PM »

I've played a variety of tunings but for the last five years only BC and a one row in D. I love everything about the BC. It is absolutely true that it was grueling at the beginning, much worse than more "intuitive" systems, but now I would never go back.
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Re: Another would-be B/C player bites the dust
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2012, 04:42:58 PM »

the BC has to be approached  a bit differently from the DG as it is completely different - but only just!
(...)
Like learning any instrument you need  a modicum of musicality ( i.e. be able to hum or whistle a tune or two)  but more importantly to develop the manual dexterity  that is requiredto opperate the instrument (its a machine)  without concious thought  eg you have to be able to reacch the next note in a tune just as quickly if it is one button away or 6!
(...)
george
This is a "sound" advice; thanks George.

What I find amazing is that even after learning tunes the "new way" on the B/C, I can still play on the D/G all the tunes that I learned earlier with a different fingering and technique.
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george garside

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Re: Another would-be B/C player bites the dust
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2012, 05:32:45 PM »

playing both systems I find it helpful to play on the row as my default method on the DG, only row crossing where it is clearly advantageous so to do.  ( I also prefer the scope for right hand chrods & extra  right hand rhythm that is  available on the row) Doing it this way helps prevent nasty accidents brought about by forgetting which box one is playing!  I tend to haave more of a problem betweeen BC & BCC#  as on a BC I forget I havn't got the C# row  & go prodding about where there are no buttons!

george
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Keithypete.

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Re: Another would-be B/C player bites the dust
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2012, 06:22:33 PM »

I've played a variety of tunings but for the last five years only BC and a one row in D. I love everything about the BC. It is absolutely true that it was grueling at the beginning, much worse than more "intuitive" systems, but now I would never go back.


 Same as that! I love my B/C and would not go back.
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Adam-T

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Re: Another would-be B/C player bites the dust
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2012, 09:29:35 PM »

I have to own up and giving in on B/C. I got it because coming from a PA & Keyboards background it would give me a fully chromatic box in a melodeon so I could just play regular non folk stuff on - well you can but it`s damn hard with a lot of complex bellows work and remembering fingering. In the end I was using it as a 1 row in C playing folk stuff so bought a D/G and the B/C is up for sale .. I`m loving the D/G and Can`t put it down, being able to Cross-Row has speeded me up and I love having a minor in the bass end.. Each to their own I guess..

I want to keep C as well so have got an old tatty Hohner 1040 in that key. A G/C would be interesting too..
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 09:34:41 PM by Adam-T »
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KLR

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Re: Another would-be B/C player bites the dust
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2012, 10:34:58 PM »

I've given up on my C#/D too... :-[  Am sticking to the PA.  All that back-and-forth is just confusing, no end of unintentional wrong notes, etc.  Plus you can't play in Ab.   8)  Theoretically you can, of course, but that's only for the truly dedicated. 

I've been playing Irish pipes for a long time before trying the button accordion, perhaps that ruined me somehow.  The bisonoric basses are about the most confusing thing I've ever attempted, after years of just tapping a regulator key and you get a note, no matter where you are in the melody.  Thinking about it, there are about 5 pipers over the course of the 20th century who also played the PA; never the button box.  Seamus Meehan's about the only any of you might have heard of, he played the PA on some of the set dancing tapes NPU issued in the 80s. 

The Irish pipes anticipated the accordion, if you think about it.  2 chromatic octaves of melody, with simple homophonic  accompaniment on tap.  Some of the old pipers like Seamus Ennis would even play a bass note/small regulators chord pattern in the same fashion as the stock oom-pah you get on the Stradella bass. 
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Michael Eskin

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Re: Another would-be B/C player bites the dust
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2012, 12:26:00 AM »

Well, I've been playing the Uilleann pipes for about 13 years, Anglo Concertina for about 7 years, and so far doing OK with the B/C box having started last summer. The basses are a challenge, but not impossible to deal with, really depends on if you're going for a piano accordion bass/chord style or regulator style playing, the bass/chord style is a great brain twister.  Coming from the Anglo I think made things easier for me, I can't imagine what it must be like coming to B/C box from scratch.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 12:27:44 AM by seisiuneer »
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Re: Another would-be B/C player bites the dust
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2012, 01:25:11 PM »

(...) I can't imagine what it must be like coming to B/C box from scratch.
Actually, my guess is that it might be easier to start fresh on a B/C than having spent years learning to play another diatonic configuration!
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Stiamh

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Re: Another would-be B/C player bites the dust
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2012, 02:18:18 PM »

I've given up on my C#/D too... :-[  Am sticking to the PA.  All that back-and-forth is just confusing, no end of unintentional wrong notes, etc.  Plus you can't play in Ab.   8)  Theoretically you can, of course, but that's only for the truly dedicated. 

You're not the first piper to bite the dust either. Patrick forget-his-name of uilleanobsession fame was selling a fancy new Paolo Soprani Jubilee C#/D on here a while ago. I don't know why a piper would want to take up the box, really. I'm sure I wouldn't have ended up courting one had the fiddle not jilted me, using focal dystonia as an excuse. And if I had taken it up accordion as a second instrument, I don't think I would have lasted the course. You can't hope to play the semitone box to an acceptable standard in Irish music unless you dedicate yourself to it completely for a while. Quite a long while, in fact. That's my belief anyway - always open to evidence to the contrary of course.

That was why I decided not to take up pipes, much as I loved them, about 30 years ago - because I thought the fiddle was a demanding enough mistress, and the pipes would be even more so. This was at a time when I was hanging around and playing a lot with Geoff Wooff in Australia, and he offered to make me a full set for a couple of thousand dollars. Now had I been thinking in terms of an investment....  :(  (somebody sold one of his sets of that vintage a few years ago for $16K)

BTW your example of an impossible key isn't a very good one. To get Ab on a C#/D is easy enough: just play on the outer row using "A fingering" and cross the row for the sole missing note, the leading note of G.

Owen Woods

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Re: Another would-be B/C player bites the dust
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2012, 02:55:54 PM »

I''ll be back in B/C territory in about a week. Can't wait!
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