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Author Topic: How to Transcribe Tunes  (Read 26940 times)

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Peter Cane

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Re: How to Transcribe Tunes
« Reply #100 on: August 13, 2023, 10:00:08 PM »

If every tune in known existence has been electronically copyrighted then by definition it will be impossible to compose a tune that is new?
This is what I mean by writing/ playing something that you thought was " yours" but its already been done.
Like somebody wrote......
As a musician I do not feel protected by copyright but more so threatened by it.
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Roger Hare

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Re: How to Transcribe Tunes
« Reply #101 on: August 14, 2023, 05:27:16 AM »

As a musician I do not feel protected by copyright but more so threatened by it.
As far as I can see, the copyright laws (in all areas of endeavour), as enacted and
enforced these days, are designed to protect no-one but copyright lawyers... 8)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2023, 05:37:19 AM by Roger Hare »
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Peter Cane

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Re: How to Transcribe Tunes
« Reply #102 on: August 14, 2023, 08:48:52 AM »

WELL SAID ROGER HARE.
It' s all money.
The innocent MUSICIAN suffers.
And believe me....I have a big heart for  the innocent musicians who have whole heartedly thought and were convinced their work was original and  have proudly put it forward only to be confronted by  the " copyright Spear".
I fully realise this thread is concerned with " How to transcribe tunes" .
Its intentions are innocent.
So lets be real!
Joe Bloggs ( or me) composes in writing/ or by ear
 a tune....
He/she YTubes it.( Coz they are proud of it and want others' takes on it) fair?...
Some one on the other side of the globe perks up and says" You have stolen my tune...that tune is copyrighted..I am going to sew you".
My question in answer to the copyright threat is...
" Is it lawfully acceptable to concede that the work was a copyright offence but had no prior knowledge that such a " work" existed?...and to arrive at " charge admonished"?
So the word " knowingly" comes to mind.
If we do not " know " a work or tune already existed how can there be a copyright infringement?
Ignorance of the law is no excuse!!!!!!
So we musicians and composers are expected to " know" evey tune in the book?
It's an ASS.





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Howard Jones

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Re: How to Transcribe Tunes
« Reply #103 on: August 14, 2023, 09:54:29 AM »

Leveret's version of The Wounded Hussar comes from the Clare MSS which can be found online at the Village Music Project.  There are a few small differences in the way they play it but they are trivial and certainly not enough for copyright to arise. The tune itself is attributed to Carolan under the title Captain O'Kane.

It is entirely possible to copyright an arrangement of a traditional tune, but it has to be a substantial arrangement and not just adding chords. As with any arrangement, the performing rights royalties are shared between the composer and the arranger (I'm not sure what happens to the composer's share where it is "trad" but I suspect it remains in the PRS pot which gets distributed to its composer members)

Howard Jones

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Re: How to Transcribe Tunes
« Reply #104 on: August 14, 2023, 10:33:54 AM »

Joe Bloggs ( or me) composes in writing/ or by ear
 a tune....
He/she YTubes it.( Coz they are proud of it and want others' takes on it) fair?...
Some one on the other side of the globe perks up and says" You have stolen my tune...that tune is copyrighted..I am going to sew you".

You're not going to get sued over a YouTube video.  Litigation is expensive, and whilst the winner may get their legal costs paid this does not usually include all their costs. In my day job I have been advised by lawyers to expect that as much as a third of litigation expenses might not be recoverable. Copyright breaches are only sued over where there are substantial royalties to be gained.

However YouTube is crawled over by bots looking for copyright breaches, and they often make mistakes. I have even known claims made against an original tune by the musician themselves. Where you have recorded a traditional tune the bot may latch onto the title, and you may find that there are a lot of arrangements of that tune which have copyright registered. However those copyrights apply only to the arrangement, not the tune itself.  When that happens you have several options:

  • Dispute the claim. It is usually possible to show that the melody is traditional or out of copyright. You may also have to show that you are playing your own arrangement and not one that is being claimed for
  • Accept ads
  • Take the video down

It's not unusual for copyright breaches to be inadvertent (see what I did there  (:)?). Some of the recent high-profile court cases have been about unintentional copying rather than deliberate plagiarism. If there's real money at stake then either the claim will be accepted and some sharing of royalties agreed, or it will go to court. However the bar seems to have been set quite high as the court seems to have recognised that there are only a limited range of notes in western music and only so many ways they can be combined.

You are right to take copyright seriously, but for the ordinary musician it shouldn't be much of a problem. The copyright management organsations (in the UK, PRS/MCPS and PPL) take care of most of the issues on behalf of their members. If you're releasing music commercially you have to jump through a few hoops but usually that's all.  Even if there might be a technical breach of copyright, you are not going to get into trouble by making transcriptions for your own personal use.

There is a useful guide to copyright on the PRS website, although it's written from their members' perspective ie composers and songwriters:

https://www.prsformusic.com/works/how-copyright-works

Theo

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Re: How to Transcribe Tunes
« Reply #105 on: August 14, 2023, 10:50:30 AM »

As a musician I do not feel protected by copyright but more so threatened by it.
As far as I can see, the copyright laws (in all areas of endeavour), as enacted and
enforced these days, are designed to protect no-one but copyright lawyers... 8)

Sorry I can't let this pass without giving a different point of view.

I have several friends who are musicians, either full time or part time, who derive some of their income from royalties on their own compositions.  Anyone who writes books, composes music, produces visual arts, films, videos etc all depend for some of their livelihood on the existence of copyright.

I think the problem that got us into the subject of copyright is that some big corporations such as Google, who own youtube, don't want their platforms to be used for material which they might possibly have to pay royalties on.
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Howard Jones

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Re: How to Transcribe Tunes
« Reply #106 on: August 14, 2023, 12:42:18 PM »

Good point, Theo, and a comment of Peter's which I'd overlooked.

Anyone who composes their own songs or tunes then you can become a member of PRS and receive royalties when they are played in public (even when you play them yourself). I am not a prolific writer of tunes, but every now and then I receive a few quid, which is nice. I also sometimes get payments from PPL, both as an individual musician and as part of the band's share, when my band's CDs get played in public or broadcast. For composers of better-known tunes than mine which get played a lot this can make up an important part of their income.

If you don't write your own music but only play tunes written by others then you don't have to worry about royalties when you play them in public, as PRS takes care of this through a licence fee paid by the venue.  If you make a commercial recording you can get permission and pay royalties through MCPS.  If you are not in the UK then there will be local copyright management organisations which do this. If you only play traditional non-copyright music then none of this is an issue for you.

Strictly speaking it is against YouTube's terms and conditions to post material to which you don't own the copyright. However you're not going to face stringent penalties if you post a video of you playing a copyright tune. At worst you might have to take down the video.

The point of copyright is to protect creators when their work is used and ensure they are rewarded. It is not to prevent their work from being used, that would be counter-productive. It is helpful to understand copyright, but there is really no need to feel threatened by it.

Roger Hare

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Re: How to Transcribe Tunes
« Reply #107 on: August 14, 2023, 05:54:43 PM »

As far as I can see, the copyright laws (in all areas of endeavour), as enacted and
enforced these days, are designed to protect no-one but copyright lawyers... 8)
Sorry I can't let this pass without giving a different point of view etc...
It was intended to be a light-hearted comment (hence the  8)), but there is a serious aspect.
We already saw another point of view:
...As a musician I do not feel protected by copyright but more so threatened by it...
If some (law-abiding) musicians feel intimidated by the copyright laws, and others feel protected
by them, something's not working as it should be?. I'm not as bothered by this as Peter Cane, but
there's something here which I find a little unsettling...
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Anahata

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Re: How to Transcribe Tunes
« Reply #108 on: August 14, 2023, 06:31:34 PM »

As with any arrangement, the performing rights royalties are shared between the composer and the arranger (I'm not sure what happens to the composer's share where it is "trad" but I suspect it remains in the PRS pot which gets distributed to its composer members)
I've always thought of it as all the royalties in that case, but the amount payable per performance is a figure plucked from the air anyway (or computed by some arcane PRS algorithm).
Certainly any performance in a PRS licensed venue of a "trad" song or tune can earn royalties for the arranger, if even if the "arranger" is simply the performer.
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Howard Jones

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Re: How to Transcribe Tunes
« Reply #109 on: August 14, 2023, 07:00:43 PM »


If some (law-abiding) musicians feel intimidated by the copyright laws, and others feel protected
by them, something's not working as it should be?

With respect to Peter Cane, if he feels threatened by copyright laws it's because he has an incomplete understanding of how they work and how they are enforced. I hope some of the responses, from me and others, have reassured him.

Except in cases of actual piracy, copyright law is not there to prevent you from doing anything but to ensure that the originator of that work gets rewarded. Transcription of a copyright work may be a breach of copyright under US law but I'm not sure it's the same in the UK. In any event he shouldn't worry about being sued for making a transcription for his own personal use or putting a recording of his own playing on YouTube. Even if that turns out to be a breach of copyright it can be remedied in a way which rewards the copyright holder rather than punishes the musician.

If he finds what he thought was an original composition contains references to copyright pieces, it's only going to become an issue if it becomes a hit and substantial royalties are at stake. In most cases even then it can be settled by an agreement to share the royalties without involving the court. At the levels I think we are talking about a simple acknowledgement of the other piece's contribution will probably be sufficient in most cases. Again, it's not something to feel threatened about.

The online bots can be a bit heavy-handed but you can dispute their claims, and can be successful.


Peter Cane

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Re: How to Transcribe Tunes
« Reply #110 on: August 15, 2023, 12:53:00 AM »

Thank you all for your views, help and reassurance.
Yes you are correct in saying that I did not have a complete understanding of copyright laws and that is why I asked questions.
Clearly by the responses you ( plural) have a good understanding of it.
Like said, if things get too hot I could simply remove it from you tube with an apology.
I will largely be playing Ukrainian folk songs so I do not envisage making " hits" nor do I want to earn money by it.
I just needed a bit of reassurance and now I have it.
Thank you!
Sorry to divert the thread so much.

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