Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Four

19 (27.5%)

Three

16 (23.2%)

Two

11 (15.9%)

Varies according to the piece I'm playing

7 (10.1%)

Four or Three

13 (18.8%)

Three or Two

3 (4.3%)

Four or Two

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 68

[Owen Woods]

if I am one of the few who can use all four fingers. If is the case then it points to a major flaw in the physical ergonomics of the instrument.

But that assumes that using four fingers is the ideal.  Since people seem to be able to play it perfectly well with 3 or even 2 fingers, the argument that the design is flawed doesn't stand up.

My experience is similar to Mory's.  I took up melodeon after already playing guitar and anglo, so I was used to using the little finger, but I don't use it much for melodeon (LH that is, I use it a lot on the right).  I was entirely self-taught and so far as I can recall I didn't consciously copy other players when learning the left hand, I just did what came naturally, which was to play with 3 fingers.

No it doesn't, it assumes that using four fingers is a technique which has advantages and is used or would be used by a significant proportion of players. Which I think is the case.

[Lyra]

As an experiment yesterday I tried playing with two fingers on the left hand.   Interesting exercise, the main observation being that I found it impossible to reach the air button while playing the lower four buttons!

Someone selling a box on ebay that's just what you need, then...

[Howard Jones]

No it doesn't, it assumes that using four fingers is a technique which has advantages and is used or would be used by a significant proportion of players. Which I think is the case.

With respect, I think that comes to much the same thing - it suggests that there are significant advantages to using four fingers, which more players would adopt if they could.  However it appears to me from this lengthy and interesting discussion that the case is far from proved.

Logically, as there are four rows of buttons then using four fingers seems to make sense.  Empirically, a great many players seem to find it natural to use three  (including some whose experience of other instruments has developed strength and co-ordination in the little finger, so that's not an excuse), with no loss of playing ability.  Of course, if the keyboard were designed differently then perhaps these people would also have found it natural to use four, but from my own experience I think not.  Any advantages to using four fingers are, I think, fairly small and insignificant insofar as being able to play the basses is concerned.  I defy anyone to tell from listening to the music whether 3 or 4 fingers are being used.

My conclusion is that it doesn't really matter whether you habitually use 3 fingers or 4.  The melodeon isn't such a sophisticated instrument that fine details of technique make much difference.  If you're comfortable playing with 4 fingers that's fine, and if you're comfortable with 3 that's fine too - I really don't believe it will make any difference at all to one's ability to play.  Using only 2 fingers does risk limiting you, imo, but some players seem to be able to overcome that.

[IanD]

What Howard said :-)

[george garside]

just a thought  but could  the 3- 4 finger advocates also be (mostly) single strap players who are  using the left hand to keep the box  in place relative to the person and are therefore less able to move the whole hand to bring two fingers into play on whatever buttons are required ( plus the occasional 3rd finger if it is desired to depress 3 buttons simultaniarsly)  than are those with the box firmly attached to the person with two straps?

george

[Theo]

Not in my case George.  I usually use two straps and four fingers on left hand (and right).
Perhaps the opposite may be true,  I think one or two contributors to this topic have explained that they prefer 3 fingers so that they can brace the pinkie against the LH end to improve stability.

[Howard Jones]

Me neither.  I usually use two straps now, but for years I was a one-strapper.  Neither do I use the left hand to keep the box in place - that comes from tension in the strap and bracing against the knee or body.  I'm predominantley a 3 finger left/4 finger right player

My reservations about using only 2 fingers are partly the amount of hand movement required and partly the need to stretch for some less obvious chords.  However I acknowledge that some players can manage this.

[oggiesnr]

My reservations about using only 2 fingers are partly the amount of hand movement required and partly the need to stretch for some less obvious chords.  However I acknowledge that some players can manage this.

Compared to a double bass the hand movement is negligable 

I wonder whether part of this also stems from a different approach/philosophy to box/bass playing.  I'll be honest, I don't play "less obvious chords" (by which I assume you mean cross chords etc)  because that's never been the way I've approached the music that I play on melodeon.   I tend be very straight ahead in my approach, if I want complex I play my bandoneon (on which I use four fingers).

I accept that I'm not using the box to it's full capabilities but that is my choice and the way I get pleasure out of playing the box just as others get pleasure from be virtuosi and playing the most fiendishly difficult music which I will happily sit back and admire without the burning desire to emulate.

Steve

[Owen Woods]

With respect, I think that comes to much the same thing - it suggests that there are significant advantages to using four fingers, which more players would adopt if they could.  However it appears to me from this lengthy and interesting discussion that the case is far from proved.

I am repeating myself now, so this will probably be my last post on this thread. I believe that there are significant advantages to using four fingers which more players would adopt if they could. And I accept that I am apparently not going to convince people over what I think is a fairly trivial and obvious point.

I think that there is danger of musical snobbery here (not directed at you Howard), with people using I IV V and two fingers looking down on those of us who use the whole of the instrument. I have made pains to never state that using the three chord trick is worse than what I do, indeed for some tunes I could achieve exactly the same effect with only two fingers. But I feel that some posters have bordered on the dismissive when referring to four fingered playing.

[oggiesnr]

With respect, I think that comes to much the same thing - it suggests that there are significant advantages to using four fingers, which more players would adopt if they could.  However it appears to me from this lengthy and interesting discussion that the case is far from proved.

I am repeating myself now, so this will probably be my last post on this thread. I believe that there are significant advantages to using four fingers which more players would adopt if they could. And I accept that I am apparently not going to convince people over what I think is a fairly trivial and obvious point.

I think that there is danger of musical snobbery here (not directed at you Howard), with people using I IV V and two fingers looking down on those of us who use the whole of the instrument. I have made pains to never state that using the three chord trick is worse than what I do, indeed for some tunes I could achieve exactly the same effect with only two fingers. But I feel that some posters have bordered on the dismissive when referring to four fingered playing.

Interestingly I thought the snobbery (if it was there) was going in the opposite direction. 

Each to their own.

Steve

PS not all of us who use two fingers exclusively use the three chord trick 

[Thrupenny Bit]

Having returned from a few days away, I'm stunned this thread has become huge!

I think there is another influence as touched on by recent posts - when the new tune dictates out of the ordinary basses it does bring your playing technique into sharp focus and mean perhaps you might have to move out of your normal comfort zone.
Originally I wanted to 'get on' with playing and felt my little finger was weak yet using 3 I could get on much quicker, as I think I said on page 1 so that's what I did. Recently I've been learing a couple of Andy Cutting tunes and realised his bass technique seems to flow from one chord to another as opposed to um pah's, and there are occasions in the last tune learnt I'm holding down a push D bass/chord using the first 2 fingers, it feels right to simply flex my 3rd/pinkie and move to the G bass/chord.
Some tunes I'm discovering need cross chording so I'm using whatever finger necessary to hold the combination of basses and chords.
I can see there might be occasions in the future when I do try and use my little finger simply because it's easier playing the tune.
Q

[Hello]

It's one of those questions to which there is no correct answer. Similar in that respect to the positioning of the right-hand thumb on or behind the fingerboard, or the wearing of 1-∞ straps 

It depends what you want to achieve and how easy it is to achieve it, as to whether you have the motivation to experiment with different finger combinations.

[AirTime]

It seems that we are going around & around on this one & the only reasonable conclusion is this:
I don't think there's any doubt that using 4 fingers potentially offers the best possibilities for playing. But it is possible to play a lot of tunes equally well using just 2 fingers.  If you're young & committed to a lifetime of playing & improving, taking the trouble to learn to use all 4 fingers definitely seems like a good idea. If you're an old codger with more limited aspirations, 2 or 3 fingers may be fine.

It depends what you want to achieve and how easy it is to achieve it, as to whether you have the motivation to experiment with different finger combinations.

If it's any comfort to Owen, as a result of this thread, I'm taking a long hard look at getting all 4 fingers working on the basses. I don't know if it will take, but I'm finding I can manage the ergonomics quite easily - it's simply a matter of pushing the hand further through the strap & curling the fingers a bit - the difficulty is in getting the pinkie to co-operate.

[george garside]

yes we are going round and round   - yes some posters are  becoming increasingly dogmatic in the way they express their opinions - yes  many agree that there is no single best way of fingering the bass - yes  if we carry on  we will all get totally pissed off , board to tears or whatever you want to call it - yes I vote that we  kill it off , at least until it   inevitably resurfaces  in a year or two!

george

[Daddy Long Les]

I would like to thank everyone for their input on this subject. I think my question has been well and truly answered and has probably given us all plenty of food for thought on the subject. Coming from the world of the guitar as I do, there are people like Eric Clapton who rarely uses his 4th finger and this suits his blues-based style admirably whereas Steve Howe (Yes) would never have managed to play what he did without all four.  It's horses for courses as always and I think we all have to agree to differ.  I needed the information for my very easy lessons and I've been able to give an informed and unbiased opinion on the subject. If you're at all interested in what I had to say check out Lesson 5   where I go through the bass part to the tune Bobby Shafto.

[Cooper]

i would like to add some data to the discussion.

I think in the last 6 or so years i have had probably around 200 students. I teach them that the first thing you need with music is fun. If you have no fun the way you are playing, you need to try playing differently, or quit.
I teach them also to use 4 fingers on both hands. Yes, this requires you to hold your instrument in a different way then if you dont do that. And yes, in the beginning for people without prior training of using those fingers separately this requires training, more training then you would need when playing only with 2 fingers. But you have started to learn something new, why not take that up in the process as well.

Of these 200 people i think about 10? of those have decided that they think the work required for those 2 extra fingers to work properly prohibits them from having enough fun. This can be due to having bodies or brains that dont cooperate for whatever reason possible. They were often good reasons, but even if they werent, it's their decisions. That is ofcourse fine for me. They tried, and decided what is best for them. i am happy to teach them further of they wish me to, and will not fret about it, it's obviously the best choice for them.

All the other players however were able to adjust their way of holding the instrument and train their fingers. Most of them had no trouble at all with using those fingers after the first series of 8 lessons (in 16 weeks). The rest had no trouble after the next series of 8 lessons.

Point is, for most people it is not that hard to learn using those 4 fingers, no need to adjust the instrument in anyway. You have to want to though.

And that last bit is ofcourse the catch. You have to want to...

-Everything you can do with 2 fingers, you can do with 4 fingers as well.

-Some things you can do with 2 fingers just as well as with more.

-A lot of things you can with 4 fingers that you cannot do with 2 fingers.


As a beginner, if you end up liking to play only stuff that you can do equally well with 2 fingers, you have invested some work that wasnt necesary. But i point back to the number of lessons needed to get used to that (and to playing at all on top of that) and point to the fact that it wasnt THAT much investing.

In all the other cases you are better of with 4 fingers. With 4 fingers you have more options. Some people miss those options, some dont.
But for the ones that dont,... it is very often ( not just in music) that if you suddenly were to have the options you would start using them and your joy would increase.

Using only 2 fingers you cannot do anything Legato with your left hand. Not even Oompa-ing the three-chord-mirracle. There will always be a gap between your C-Oompa and your D-push-Oompa (for instance), because you have to jump.

Using only 2 fingers you can never make gapless bass-"walks". E-D-C-B, or C-B-A-G

Using only 2 fingers you can never push some combinations of 2 buttons at the same time. (like Dbass with Em chord, for Em7, or Cbass with Em chord for CM7, or, a more common chord for the three-chord-miracle, Cbass-Dchord for D7). (i hope i have the combinations right, as it is 2.30 am, and i dont play DG)
I will admit that in lots of music you wont need these chords, and you can easily do without those for a musiclifetime. Yet they could make your music (enjoyment) richer. And they could do that for the new beginner as well. And all that for just a small investment.

Very late now,
:-)
W

[Theo]

Moderator message

If you have seen enough of this thread then please simply ignore it.

If you have feel strongly that it is going awry in some way please report your concerns to me by pm or through the message reporting system. Yes there is quite a lot of duplication here and yes it is a long thread, but I don't see either of those as a reason to stop discussion.

Just keep all contributions respectful of the views of others please.

I will remove all the posts which ask for the topic to be closed.

Theo  [with stern teacherish face on]

[Howard Jones]

I'm inclined to agree with Cooper so far as 2-finger playing is concerned.  I've seen people play some amazing stuff with just two fingers, but I do feel they are making it difficult for themselves.

Where I find it harder to see a distinction is the difference between 4-finger and 3-finger playing.  This is where I respectfully disagree with ukebert - I cannot think of anything which requires all four fingers to achieve (other than a four-finger chord, of course, but surely that is unusual) although I concede it may sometimes be helpful to bring in the little finger I find it is seldom necessary. To be clear, it is its habitual use in normal playing that I am talking about.

It appears to me that the benefits of 4 fingers over 3 are purely mechanical (by which I mean keeping the hand in position relative to the keyboard) rather than giving any musical advantages (by which I mean what can be played).  Nothing I've read so far on this thread has persuaded me otherwise.  However I'd be glad to be enlightened.

[Chris Ryall]

I cannot think of anything which requires all four fingers to achieve (other than a four-finger chord, of course, but surely that is unusual) although I concede it may sometimes be helpful to bring in the little finger I find it is seldom necessary. To be clear, it is its habitual use in normal playing that I am talking about.

I play right hand 4 finger chords all the time. I admit that the classic 1,3,5,7 chords tend to sound a bit "corner jazz club" in a folk session, but sus chords (as per the new wave guitar stuff in the 80's) are wonderful against our modal music. I'm particularly fond of Bm79  C#,D,F#, B to get a cadence effect against Irish dorian Em. (instead of perpetual Em,D,Em,D, Em ...).  I 'can' play that with 3 fingers, but lets not expand this thread even more into not/covering more than one button.

The latest Pignol/Milleret video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSQ_KX2u-5I shows some nice 3 finger chords on bass. If the quote above refers to that end - nope I can't think of any either!  But to broaden in another direction .. there are not many other facets of musicality that deliberately restrict harmony to major and minor triads?

[pikey]

I cannot think of anything which requires all four fingers to achieve (other than a four-finger chord, of course, but surely that is unusual) although I concede it may sometimes be helpful to bring in the little finger I find it is seldom necessary. To be clear, it is its habitual use in normal playing that I am talking about.

I play right hand 4 finger chords all the time. I admit that the classic 1,3,5,7 chords tend to sound a bit "corner jazz club" in a folk session, but sus chords (as per the new wave guitar stuff in the 80's) are wonderful against our modal music. I'm particularly fond of Bm79  C#,D,F#, B to get a cadence effect against Irish dorian Em. (instead of perpetual Em,D,Em,D, Em ...).  I 'can' play that with 3 fingers, but lets not expand this thread even more into not/covering more than one button.

The latest Pignol/Milleret video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSQ_KX2u-5I shows some nice 3 finger chords on bass. If the quote above refers to that end - nope I can't think of any either!  But to broaden in another direction .. there are not many other facets of musicality that deliberately restrict harmony to major and minor triads?

There aren't many other facets of musicality that rely on an instrument that has such limitations!