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Author Topic: Accidentals, where and when  (Read 2848 times)

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Adam-T

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Accidentals, where and when
« on: June 22, 2012, 08:19:59 AM »

This is the Fork from the Beginners thread (as suggested by Andy) as to where accidentals ideally should be on existing box layouts and even if at all ...

Personally I think that on D/G boxes that they should be at the top end (pitch wise) as the notes up there are pretty useless (though I do have long fingers) and we need all the Low notes we can get, there`s  nothing worse in the middle of a tune doing a run down (pitch wise) and getting a Popeye steam whistle unless it`s a comedy song or where rude words need bleeping - I`d even go as far as to replace the Accidentals set under the low notes on 23 button boxes with extended Low notes too ..

The Standard No accidental Low notes on D/G Boxes are (B|D) top Row, (F#|A) Bottom Row ....... I`d Probably go for Lesters suggestion of using the Penguin of Death layout which uses different Lows - (B|C) Top row and (G|A) Bottom Row .

Oh And I`d do similar to non Club C/F boxes too like Ericas and Corsos ..

Thoughts everyone ? . 

EDIT:- Also an ideal thread for thoughts on removing thirds in bass end Chords (and how to in different boxes)  .. Buttons (pitch wise) ref added to save confusion   :-[ - Thanks Lester
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 09:50:04 AM by Adam-T »
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Lester

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Re: Accidentals, where and when
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2012, 09:20:12 AM »

Adam, you have fallen foul of the standard problem when discussing melodeon buttons. I believe when you say "I think that on D/G boxes that they should be at the top" you mean nearer your knees (on the top tonally) rather than nearer your chin (on the top physically). NOt sure that I agree with you as the index finger is far more mobile and longer to search out the accidentals when they are chinmost as against finding them with the less mobile and shorter little finger should they be kneemost.

ps The rows are normally refered to as the inside and outside rows  ;)

As you mention the PoD what I have is the G Scale/Anahata layout with 4th button start to retain the accidentals where they should be, I use this on all my melodeons that I build/refurb for myself.

PoD Layout
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 09:21:49 AM by Lester »
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Adam-T

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Re: Accidentals, where and when
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2012, 09:40:05 AM »

I guess 20 yrs of PAs does this - LOL . top is top pitch on a keyboard regardless if its on an accordion, synth, organ etc. - as for the inner outer row thing, Yeah, I know, LOL, too much looking at Steirisches which have more rows than some CBAs  :o .......

Ahh, I didn`t realise the P.O.D was the Anahata layout , I can see the validity of that though means moving all the reeds along one place and didn`t know how the reedblocks would handle it .
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Lester

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Re: Accidentals, where and when
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2012, 09:49:08 AM »

Ahh, I didn`t realise the P.O.D was the Anahata layout , I can see the validity of that though means moving all the reeds along one place and didn`t know how the reedblocks would handle it .

I believe the D/G reed blocks are in fact the same ones as used on C/Fs but, because the D/G reeds are shorter there is a small strip of wood waxed to the foot of the block to lift the reeds, when this is removed the reeds slip down one position very easily.

You cand see the strip of wood under the wax in this photo, click on the image for a larger version

Adam-T

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Re: Accidentals, where and when
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2012, 09:51:53 AM »

Excellent info - Thanks again !!
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Theo

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Re: Accidentals, where and when
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2012, 09:54:22 AM »


I believe the D/G reed blocks are in fact the same ones as used on C/Fs but, because the D/G reeds are shorter there is a small strip of wood waxed to the foot of the block to lift the reeds, when this is removed the reeds slip down one position very easily.
As far as I can tell all the Hohner pokerwork/erica/2915 treble reed blocks are the same size regardless of whether they are original fitted with DG, CF, BbEb, AD, GC, BC, C/C# C#/D or anything else.  The only exceptions I've found are the rare bandoneon tuned examples (which Lester has recently re-created) which have reedblocks that are taller on one side for the lower set of reeds.
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Adam-T

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Re: Accidentals, where and when
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2012, 10:05:03 AM »

You mean that 2 voice bandoneon tuned 2915 (and erica) type hohners actually existed ? . Interesting . I believe there are LMM Corsos about too .
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Mike Hirst

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Re: Accidentals, where and when
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2012, 10:20:47 AM »

I would say that the placing of non scalar tones at the end of each row is anything but accidental. When extended across three rows they reveal a set of logical repeating patterns which fall neatly under the fingers. These patterns are perhaps best revealed through playing in non-home keys. Eb can be played on the GCF Corona with as much ease as C or G.

Spend some time working with the non scalar tones. Try playing in keys you would not normally use. It is also worth noting that the four buttons at the accidental end of each row form a diminished 7th. Try using these in the context of a harmonic minor melody. 'Dark Eyes' sounds great with these used to play scalar or arpeggio runs.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 10:30:21 AM by Mike Hirst »
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Re: Accidentals, where and when
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2012, 10:22:44 AM »

For completeness, I'll summarize what I said in the other thread about interesting ideas for accidentals. I know someone who has this layout:
Accidental buttons at both ends. At the chin end, the E♭/F pair are an octave lower than usual. At the knee end, the G#/B♭ pair are in the higher octave.

Result:
1. the bottom F natural and top G# are incredibly useful for playing in D minor and A major.
2. Some accidentals are physically closer to the pitch adjacent notes than in the conventional layout
3. Conversion of a conventional two-row is possible.
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waltzman

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Re: Accidentals, where and when
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2012, 01:36:23 PM »


I believe the D/G reed blocks are in fact the same ones as used on C/Fs but, because the D/G reeds are shorter there is a small strip of wood waxed to the foot of the block to lift the reeds, when this is removed the reeds slip down one position very easily.
As far as I can tell all the Hohner pokerwork/erica/2915 treble reed blocks are the same size regardless of whether they are original fitted with DG, CF, BbEb, AD, GC, BC, C/C# C#/D or anything else.  The only exceptions I've found are the rare bandoneon tuned examples (which Lester has recently re-created) which have reedblocks that are taller on one side for the lower set of reeds.

Yes.  The Hohner USA technician gave me this bit of information some time ago.  It makes perfect sense from a production standpoint.  The blocks are designed to fit the key with the largest reeds (?G/C) and then for other keys you add little slips of wood to accommodate  the smaller reeds.
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Earbrass

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Re: Accidentals, where and when
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2012, 05:44:22 PM »

Accidentals: when???

Despite their misleading name, accidentals tend to sound better when played on purpose;)
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Accidentals, where and when
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2012, 04:37:08 AM »

Amen!
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Mike Hirst

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Re: Accidentals, where and when
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2012, 07:30:15 AM »

I would say that the placing of non scalar tones at the end of each row is anything but accidental.
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