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Author Topic: Playing with singers who need an odd key  (Read 9508 times)

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SamWise

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Re: Playing with singers who need an odd key
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2008, 11:03:48 AM »

Hmmm. I have a Bb Generation. I can cross-finger into Eb just fine - Ab might be more of a challenge. I'll try Blu-tack
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Falseknight

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Re: Playing with singers who need an odd key
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2008, 01:00:17 PM »

I like folk music, but I find sessions bizarre - you need to know 8 million different tunes just to get along, and whilst I like folk, I'm nowhere near committed enough to it to invest the sort of time involved - I have too much other music to play. I'm interested in learning songs to perform, and for my purposes, why not Bb/Eb?

It's fairly easy to argue that sessions are neither folk nor music - especially with two banjo players trying to boss every tune at 95 miles an hour.
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SamWise

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Re: Playing with singers who need an odd key
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2008, 04:16:24 PM »

They certainly don't work well for me. The first one I attended was in Northumberland, and I assumed that as an able musician who can improvise well, I'd do fine. In the event, I barely played a note. Everyone in the room knew all these tunes, and I knew nothing, yet it wasn't very pleasant to listen to.
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Stiamh

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Re: Playing with singers who need an odd key
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2008, 08:18:43 PM »

They certainly don't work well for me. The first one I attended was in Northumberland, and I assumed that as an able musician who can improvise well, I'd do fine. In the event, I barely played a note. Everyone in the room knew all these tunes, and I knew nothing, yet it wasn't very pleasant to listen to.

I can sympathise if the music wasn't very pleasant to listen to Sam, but as far as joining in goes, maybe you need to see things from the other side.

It's not unusual for people to turn up at the kinds of sessions I go to (mostly Irish music) and expect to be able to join in without knowing the tunes. Perhaps because they assume that a "session" must be a "jam session" where all you need is to be able to improvise.

When such a person shows up with their instrument, someone has to explain to them that no, it isn't a jam session, and that most of us have been learning the music we are playing for many years. Anybody is welcome to join in, but only if their contribution doesn't spoil things for the other participants. Yes, there is scope for a certain amount of improvisation - but only if you know the musical language well, which isn't going to be the case unless you have been playing it for some time. If you want to join in, you have to learn some of the tunes that are likely to be played, at least.

Trying to get this across is not always easy. Ideally it will be done in a friendly manner, making it clear to the "postulant" that they are welcome to join the circle, ask questions, get pointers, and so on. And ideally the newcomer will understand. It doesn't always work out that way, though, and as a result the session may get wrecked and/or people's feelings hurt.

SamWise

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Re: Playing with singers who need an odd key
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2008, 09:40:54 PM »

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Stiamh

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Re: Playing with singers who need an odd key
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2008, 12:23:00 AM »

... I don't really get what the appeal is of sitting in as 30-40 people batter a tune...

Ah. I see what you mean. The sessions I go to regularly usually have no more than 6 players. 10 is getting big. When the mix is right, what I get out of it is a lot of fun from the social interaction (hesitate to use the overworked word "crack") and the pleasure of making music that sounds good. Both aspects have to be there. If socially it isn't happening and the music doesn't sound good then you're right - no fun at all.

SamWise

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Re: Playing with singers who need an odd key
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2008, 07:13:52 AM »

Ah. Once you have 6 players, especially if they're generally the same ones, you're getting to something more like a band rehearsal, and then I get the appeal. This was merciless, it really was.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Playing with singers who need an odd key
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2008, 08:00:52 AM »

...... but I don't really get what the appeal is of sitting in as 30-40 people batter a tune which could be quite lovely if just 4 or 5 of them played and the rest listened. There were no dynamics, little feeling; I just didn't get it. So I comped along for a bit, then made my excuses and left. It would've been nice if someone had said hello, or told me a bit about what was going on, but it wouldn't have made any difference really......

.... For those who do love sessions, more power to your elbow. I'm quite interested, actually, to know what it is you get out of them - can someone enlighten me?
SamWise,
I've played in many sessions, some were good, some indifferent and some downright bad. Yours sounds like one of the latter type (30-40 people?? Crumbs, normally that's just too many). The things which annoy me most in sessions are (a) people not listening to the person who started a tune and race away with it or otherwise take it over and (b) if someone starts a tune which some of the others don't know, the others just start talking loudly amongst themselves, instead of taking an opportunity to be quiet and learn something new.

Fortunately they're not all like that, and it is worth trying a few more before you give up on them altogether.
A session I go to fairly often out in the wilds of the Peak District is normally very friendly indeed. Numbers vary from about 8 to 15.  Many of the people there are long-standing friends and play together elsewhere in various bands, so inevitably there is a good selection of core tunes that rattle along quite nicely with no need for anyone to call any changes because we all know what tunes will happen next. This could be quite intimidating for a new visitor or beginner, but we all make a real effort to welcome newcomers and learn their names - and importantly, make sure they have as many opportunities to start or join in tunes as they wish.

Having said all that, there is one very busy session which I do enjoy greatly - the Friday night session at the beginning of Melodeons at Witney. It can be loud and continuous melodeon music for 3 hours or so. No sooner does one tune finish than another starts. There might be 40+ melodeon players in the room - can you imagine it!!?? Many of the people who go there do so purely to let their hair down and catch up with friends whom they haven't seen for 12 months since the last time. The session sometimes lacks finesse, but it is a fantastic feeling to be part of such a wall of sound, just once in a while. I do warn beginners what to expect here and reassure them that the sometimes wild and woolly atmosphere is definitely not an indication of what will be happening in the formal tuition sessions of the rest of the weekend.

What do I get out of sessions? I've already mentioned the buzz from the 'wall of sound' experience; great - but I wouldn't want it to happen too often. Mostly I just love playing tunes - it's my 'drug' and I like to get my 'fix' in the company of others doing the same. For me, sessions are not usually the place where refined music happens. For that, a small group, 3 or 4 of us meet in each others houses and learn new stuff, try out different tunes and work out arrangements, etc.

Otherwise for me the session is the place where you can meet with others to have a stonking good set of tunes, let your hair down, enjoy the rhythm and melody and not worry too much about the fine details.
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george garside

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Re: Playing with singers who need an odd key
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2008, 09:56:27 AM »

I agree with Steve's comments about people not listening and also  not trying to ppick up a tune played by a newcomer to the session.  Unfortunately some (but by no means all) sessions seem to be run as a private party even when in the bar of a pub and the players seem to make a serious attempt to discourage  anybody joining in .  Sadly the same applies to some 'lead' festival sessions where the leader(s) play flat out throughout the session on the basis that anybody is welcome to join in provided they can but nobody is actively encouraged to participate - which to me is the key componant of a lead session i.e. getting as many people playing as possible at any given time  & keeping the pace steady i.e. at the tunes natural speed  which every tune has & when everything comes nicely together.  I am not keen on the term 'slow session' which can easily become a 'workshop'. Both session & workshop have their place but not at the same time!  For what its worth I think a tune plyed at 200 miles an hour sounds just as  crappy as one played at half speed- neither was what the maker intended!

As to really big sessions they are great to take part in , or indeed to lead  & as Steve has saiad there is a buzz about playing en masse.  I once recorded a session I was running at Sidmouth festival with 156 players taking part.  It sounded  great on the night but bloody awful when played back, probably because the tape could not convey the 'atmosphere' of  everybody enjoying themselves - warts & all.

If there are no sessions in your area (or only 'fast' sessions) why not get together 5 or 6 like minded individuals and start your own - hopefully going on to provide a real welcome to all who subsequently come along.

george
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Falseknight

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Re: Playing with singers who need an odd key
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2008, 10:33:31 AM »

Since most tunes are for dancing (OK, not slow airs) the rule should be, if it is too fast to reasonably dance to, then it is too fast.

With the slow airs, there somethines seems to be a competition as to how slow you can actually play the thing without actually stopping.
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SamWise

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Re: Playing with singers who need an odd key
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2008, 10:54:02 AM »


If there are no sessions in your area (or only 'fast' sessions) why not get together 5 or 6 like minded individuals and start your own - hopefully going on to provide a real welcome to all who subsequently come along.

george

I'm sure there are plenty of sessions in my area, I just have no desire to go! Even though some of what you all describe in these smaller sessions sounds like fun, it's still not really what I enjoy about music. A 5 or 6 person session might be fun to listen to, but I can't imagine learning repertoire just to play at a session. On the other hand, my missus is working on opening a tea shop which will be open til midnight and provide entertainment, and there might be room for a weekly or bi-weekly folk session amongst the open mic and comedy nights. Perhaps a folk club though. I dunno.

Anyway, I really don't think session playing is for me, it's just not directional enough - too much of an "end in itself". I have such little spare time that I want to invest it in music that can take me somewhere new, just at the moment.
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SamWise

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Re: Playing with singers who need an odd key
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2008, 09:56:33 PM »

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smiley

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Re: Playing with singers who need an odd key
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2008, 01:14:22 AM »

I've been jamming with some jazz musos for a while (on bass) and have begun playing some of the songs in 'flat' keys on my old C/F hohner box, which has the standard accidentals. For some tunes with a few Eb or Ab chords I can improvise ok behind the melody by playing other notes in the relevant chord - or just slur a few quick passing notes to fake it until we get to a 'safer' key ;-)

But if you've got a piano box available it would probably be more sensible to just concentrate on playing that. [jeez I think I've just expressed heretical views on this forum ....]
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Pete of Ebor

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Re: Playing with singers who need an odd key
« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2008, 08:26:16 PM »

There's always a Streb ! - can't that be retuned to odd keys ?
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