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[Jeremy Burnett]

Does anyone know where I can get charts or tables to show how to transpose tunes from one key to another.How do I write out the music for a tune originally in Am to say C or G ?

[Lester]

Does anyone know where I can get charts or tables to show how to transpose tunes from one key to another.How do I write out the music for a tune originally in Am to say C or G ?

You can't transpose minor key tunes to major keys as the spacing of the notes in the keys is different.

[Lester]

But if you have the tunes in ABC format and want to just change the key I would go HERE

[Daddy Long Les]

I use an excellent piece of software called Sibelius First. It cost around £60 and I tend to enter notes into it using the mouse. It's a very simple matter to transpose the key once the notes are entered.
Basically though you need to work out the distance between the two keys and move all the notes up or down the same amount e.g. Transposing from C up to E - move all notes up four semitones

[george garside]

surely  if you know a tune in one key you an play it in any other (that the instrument is capable of and on which you know how to play the appropriate scale  )) simply by starting somewhere else and then gettting on with it!

george

[Dee J]

surely  if you know a tune in one key you an play it in any other (that the instrument is capable of and on which you know how to play the appropriate scale  )) simply by starting somewhere else and then gettting on with it!

george

That's a nice idea in principle.... and relies on "if you know a tune in one key" and can play it just referring to the physical relation of the buttons on the melodeon. If I can play a tune on my G melodeon I can easily transpose it onto my toy C by playing the same physical pattern of buttons (rather than thinking of note names). But if I find the score or ABC of a tune I want to learn and it's in the wrong key for any available instrument then I need to re-write the tune shifting each note by the relevant amount of semitones (easier with ABC - there's some oneline tools for that) then learning. Of course minor keys on a melodeon get more complicated and rely on mode playing (starting the scale on something other than the key note eg start a scale on E on a D tuned instrument gives a minor scale) - definately a pencil and paper task for me. Dee

[Jeremy Burnett]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I think part of my problem lies in George's "know the appropriate scale" ! So to take it from there, where can I find the fingerings for some of the less basic keys. Can I play in Am on a Dg or if not which key box etc. A table showing the notes and the fingerings of all scales playable, within reason, on the various box tunings would be educational ,to me anyway.

[Mike Hirst]

play it just referring to the physical relation of the buttons on the melodeon.

The relationship is between the notes in the melody.

On any instrument of any configuration, melodeon or otherwise, it is import to spend time learning the relationship between the notes. Spend time practicing, playing thirds, sixths and octaves, either within one key, or in chromatic patterns. Learn right hand chord positions and practice them 'til you can switch from one chord to another without thinking. Practice arpeggios over the whole length of the keyboard.

When we sing we have no problem switching key. If a guitar player puts a capo on at the first fret, the audience don't need pen and paper to join in the chorus.

[Lester]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I think part of my problem lies in George's "know the appropriate scale" ! So to take it from there, where can I find the fingerings for some of the less basic keys. Can I play in Am on a Dg or if not which key box etc. A table showing the notes and the fingerings of all scales playable, within reason, on the various box tunings would be educational ,to me anyway.

You can play in Am on a D/G but you either have to play tunes with no F natural or find where it is on your box and learn to play it. Just to further confuse you a lot of tunes in "A Minor" are actually in A Mixolydian so actually have an F# in them so are played entirely on the G row. The only difficulty left then is the chords, if you have a stop to remove the thirds your life is easy if not you need the A bass C chord to form an Amin7.

[FlatNote]

You can't transpose minor key tunes to major keys as the spacing of the notes in the keys is different.

But there is a procedure for going from minor to major keys which involves more than transposing but where the extra step involved is straightforward on semitone boxes.  So if, as in this case, you wanted to go from A (natural) minor to C (major) then first you transpose A minor to C minor using whatever method floats your boat.  After that you then turn C (natural) minor into C major.  A given minor key has a number of flattened notes in relation to the major key.  To go from minor to major you just unflatten the relevant notes.  C minor has three flats (B, E and A).  On a B/C box these flats are all on the outside row and to get the naturals you just slide diagonally downwards to the nearest button on the inside row keeping the bellows direction the same.  If you want to go from major to minor the procedure is the reverse.  This ability to try out a tune in various modes without changing the bellows directions is one of the major distinguishing features of semitone boxes, though it is little noted in comparison with the ability to play in lots of different keys.

[Jeremy Burnett]

Thanks Lester, thats handy. Am I right therefore in thinking that the A Mix scale starts with an A pull on the G row and proceeds up from there?
In all the (many) instruction books I have seen there are scales with notes and fingerings for the basic, usually two, keys of that instrument, usually D/G. It seems hard to find scales etc for the other keys that are available for the variously tuned instruments. I would very much like a book that showed the scales and fingerings for all keys available on each tuning, ie: D/G, C/F, A/D,G/C etc.

[Dee J]

When we sing we have no problem switching key.[/quote]

Yes I have great vocal capability - I can sing out of tune in any key you care to play!

Many of us here (I suspect), like me, have come to learning the melodeon a) slightly later in life and b) on a minimal musical background. So at the same time as trying to get fingers in the right places to get a tune out of a box we're also struggling with muscal theory - keys, intervals, chords, modes etc. so other than badly strumming a few chords on a guitar, the melodeon is my first instrument. Why melodeon - just the sound of slightly wet tuned free reed instruments sends shivers down my spine. PAs are too big and clumsy and concertinas don't fit my choice of music. Why learn to play rather than listen to others? - because I like learning and like to unravel the patterns hidden in the music.

Maybe as the song goes 'you can't get there from here' but it's fun trying.

Dee

[Marje]

It isn't quite as simple as a key being either available or not. There are several factors that determine whether a certain tune in a particular key can be played on a given box.

The treble end: if your box is, say, a D/G or C/F and has no accidentals, you'll be more limited in what you can play; if you have a few accidentals, this may make more tunes/keys accessible. 

The basses: you either have to stick to the standard 8-button basses or choose to play without basses if the appropriate bass is not available. Some boxes have and extra row or half-row and another pair of basses, which give more options. Some Irish-style players hardly use the bass.

Then it depends on the tune. Some tunes in a key such as A or Am don't actually use all the notes in that scale, so you may find you can manage them (e.g. Atholl Highlanders in A on a D/G, which doesn't require a G#). The basic 3 basses you need in A are already there (A,D and E with no 3rd).

In general terms, a D/G box without accidentals will play most standard tunes in D/G and their relative minors (Em and Bm). For other boxes, just work out the intervals and apply all the above. But with accidentals, open-5th chords (no 3rds), and some faking/changing/omission of basses or tricky notes, you can probably manage certain tunes in other keys.

[Mike Hirst]

When we sing we have no problem switching key.

Yes I have great vocal capability - I can sing out of tune in any key you care to play!

The limitation here is vocal range, not understanding. If a song key is shifted up or down by a halftone the perceived change is minimal. There is no relearning required in singing 'The Wild Rover' in F as opposed to singing the same melody in E. Making the switch on the accordion would require different fingering, but the relationship between the notes remains the same.

Many of us here (I suspect), like me, have come to learning the melodeon a) slightly later in life and b) on a minimal musical background. So at the same time as trying to get fingers in the right places to get a tune out of a box we're also struggling with muscal theory - keys, intervals, chords, modes etc. so other than badly strumming a few chords on a guitar, the melodeon is my first instrument. Why melodeon - just the sound of slightly wet tuned free reed instruments sends shivers down my spine. PAs are too big and clumsy and concertinas don't fit my choice of music. Why learn to play rather than listen to others? - because I like learning and like to unravel the patterns hidden in the music.

Maybe as the song goes 'you can't get there from here' but it's fun trying.

Dee

True we all start playing at different stages in life. We all have different goals. However time spent developing theoretical understanding of the instrument is never wasted.

[Chris Brimley]

Jeremy, it seems to me that you're reading the music from staves?  In which case, if you just copy that into http://musescore.org/, (free software) it will transpose it for you.  Having the tune in electronic form gives you all sorts of other benefits for later.

However, if you're talking about using a range of boxes in different keys, it would perhaps be easiest to learn where the notes for the music are on (arguably say) a D/G box, and then if you want to use a different box, transpose the tune into D, G, Am or Em, and then play it on a different box from that music as if it was  D/G box.  Many wind instrument players do a similar thing.

Actually this leads to an interesting question, which I don't think has come up before - do other members with a range of boxes and who read music (or ABC) use this transposing convention, or do they  learn the different notes on each of their boxes?

[Dee J]

I’ve always felt slightly un-easy about the direct transposing technique…

Often when practicing I have the note names in my head which is great if I’m not transposing (say a G tune on my one row Poker G box)… but pick up another box (say the toy C or the Lili Bb) and just play the same positions and suddenly I’m learning the wrong note names.

Add the complication that I usually play the G box as 6th button start – ‘cos it’s a very low box but the Bb as 3rd button start makes the bellows direction wrong. So generally I try to learn a tune specific to the Poker or the Lili and just keep direct transposing for fooling around on the toy C.

So what goes through your head when transposing… note names, numbers, fingers, sounds, images of the score or have you got the process so automatic that your brain is elsewhere?

Dee

[Jeremy Burnett]

I suppose a certain amount of obstinacy comes with advancing years, all that has gone before has been interesting but seems to me to overcomplicate the issue, my basic question remains. Why cant I get a book, print out , or other , showing the various keys that are available to me in my various melodeons, and a stave with fingering as shown for the DG in every book ever printed?  A niche for someone?

[Lester]

I suppose a certain amount of obstinacy comes with advancing years, all that has gone before has been interesting but seems to me to overcomplicate the issue, my basic question remains. Why cant I get a book, print out , or other , showing the various keys that are available to me in my various melodeons, and a stave with fingering as shown for the DG in every book ever printed?  A niche for someone?

You could apply your self to this, any number of web sites will tell you which notes are in which keys and this site has maps of what notes are where on most melodeon types. Add the two together you will get what you want and as a by-product you will have educated yourself in the inner intricacies of melodeons and music.

[george garside]

what Lester said!

george

[Howard Jones]

Why cant I get a book, print out , or other , showing the various keys that are available to me in my various melodeons, and a stave with fingering as shown for the DG in every book ever printed?  A niche for someone?

To be pedantic, the "stave with fingering as shown for the DG in every book ever printed" will show you all the notes available on the instrument and so already shows which keys are available.  Which keys are playable will also depend on how your basses are set up.

What I think you are asking for are "cheat sheets" to show fingerings for all the possible scales.  That's quite a task (you'll be surprised how many scales are possible on the RH, especially if you include modal and blues scales, and if you ignore the basses) and is just as likely to overcomplicate the matter (especially if you also want them for melodeons in different keys).  It would probably take a book in itself, and I wonder if there is sufficient demand - I suspect that most players simply find a suitable key by ear and by trial and error. 

Also bear in mind that many tunes, especially folk tunes, don't always stick to a scale or mode, so whether they are playable on a melodeon will depend entirely on what notes are in the tune.  Simply putting them into what seems to be a suitable key may not work in practice.  Of course, there is also the well-established melodeon technique of fudging a note when it doesn't exist on the instrument   . 

Rather than try to work it out on paper, why don't you try working out scales on the instrument itself?  This will give you a much better understanding of what is possible, and will help to develop your ear-playing so you can find a suitable key without having to transpose on paper.

If you want to do it on paper then by far the easiest method is to copy it into ABC if it isn't already in it and to use one of the free programs to shift it up or down by the appropriate number of semitones.  Changing tunes from minor to major, or vice versa, is a very different exercise.