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Discussions => Teaching and Learning => Topic started by: JM on April 29, 2016, 12:44:29 AM

Title: Variations for a beginner
Post by: JM on April 29, 2016, 12:44:29 AM
While I am still a relative beginner, I have been learning some french tunes that have really motivated my learning.  For one of those tunes (Le Revenant) I also have the tabs or dots for about 6 variations.  Learning both the original and some variations has been extremely helpful in seeing how one might create variations on other tunes.  It also helps me be able to play a song more than 40 seconds long! 

To build on this, I was wondering if anyone be willing to share a tune or two that they also have the tabs/dots for some variations?   

My current ability is able to play:

La Mal Aimable
Valse a Ollu
Mon Amant de St Jean
Valse a Mary
Loubov
and others

Many thanks!

JM
Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: Pete Dunk on May 02, 2016, 11:41:01 PM
I have lots of variation sets but all are Northumbrian or to a lesser extent Scottish in origin not French. These are .abc files but could be made into PDFs

What keys are your box tuned to? Is your interest French music only?
Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: Chris Ryall on May 03, 2016, 09:05:35 AM
Not sure "variations" should be written down as they are in a sense part of what makes your play unique. improvisation even more so, but that's a much longer journey.

Listen to everyone you can hear play. Borrow what sounds good to you. Listen again, and realise that many tricks eg breaking the chord rhythm, can be applied in one of your pieces in the same way.

Listen more and find "universals" like note sequence inversions, or replacing tune with a chord arpeggio (learn the useful right end chords). Listen to yourself, refine what you did last month.

This is as much about listening as learning as you have to train sensibilities as much as your fingers.

Is also as much about one's journey as the destination.
Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: Sebastian on May 03, 2016, 11:39:52 AM
Not sure "variations" should be written down as they are in a sense part of what makes your play unique. improvisation even more so, but that's a much longer journey.
To me it is helpfull for more detailed analysing to have the notation in addition. It is an additional source of information.
Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: Jack Campin on May 03, 2016, 12:16:19 PM
Like Pete, I have lots of variation sets from the north end of Britain, but they were all intended for the flute, pipes or violin and would probably be a pig to play on the melodeon.  Look at my "Old Scottish Flute Music" pages for a few:

http://www.campin.me.uk/Flute/Webrelease/Flute/Flute.htm

Is there a French tradition of anything comparable?  If there is I've never encountered it.
Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: Mike Hirst on May 03, 2016, 12:26:03 PM
Not sure "variations" should be written down

There are many from Renaissance to Reich who would disagree:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variation_%28music%29

Variation sets and improvisation are not necessarily the same thing. It is well documented that both Mozart and Beethoven where accomplished improvisers, yet both published Variation Sets. To liken the Goldberg Variations to Coltrane would be a complete misunderstanding of intention, form and style. The same is true of notated Northumbrian variation sets for pipes, fiddle or keyboard. Although extemporisation is possible within the form it is not necessary for the music and effective. The most successful variation sets develop a simple theme through harmony, modal shifts, and changing note lengths. On accordion Will Starr was a master of this stylistic technique. A good example of this would be his recording of the Bluebells of Scotland:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkpfOu3GmIM
Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: JM on May 03, 2016, 04:56:26 PM
Thanks so much for all of the thoughts so far. 

Yes, my interests go to many types of music, but what originally drew me to the melodeon (well, 'accordion' here in the states) was French music.  I have a GC two row, and it has been amazing.

I totally understand that the act of variations often comes from personal re-tooling of a song, and even improvisation, so writing these down does somewhat goes against the thought of them.  But as a new learner, I find it incredibly helpful to see it written down what kinds of choices people have made to change a tune, while still keeping the relative spirit of the song.  I don't envision needing written versions of variations for all future songs, but have enjoyed un-packing how others have re-tooled the tune to fit their own variations.  I think this gives me a broad scope of what is even possible (Since I dont have a deep musical background before my recent foray into melodeon, I have no theory to lead me along these decisions) 

I'm open to a lot of styles, mostly just something I can practice over and over and ultimately expand with variations to last more than 40 seconds!

Thanks Jack for those variations!  And Pete, I'll take anything you are willing to share (no need to send a ton, just enough to keep me going!)



Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: playandteach on May 03, 2016, 07:02:39 PM
I know exactly what you mean, and have no problem with them being written down. I would try these tunes which develop organically rather than have specific variations:
Valse Des Chevaux de Bois
La Femme de Marbre (harder)
Scottish a L'Amante (5 sections)
These are all Delicq tunes

Sous les toits de la Rue Tiquetonne (pretty hard), think it's a Denecheau tune,
Les Dames, which has inbuilt parts that fit together or run on from eachother - don't know who it's by.
When I'm on a different computer I'll attach copies - what key box are you using?
Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: Grape Ape on May 03, 2016, 10:39:35 PM
Here's a video displaying multiple variations on the same tune, if you haven't seen it.  Some are easier than others, and it isn't written, but definitely shows a nice of example of the same tune being played many different ways.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BKrwe9J5y1g
Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: Chris Ryall on May 03, 2016, 11:23:36 PM
Thanks - great example of the "flexible" approach

variation
1 - change octave
2 - counterpoint against  play arpeggios of its chords
       then more chording (sus) and rhythm change
3 arpeggio the tunes chords on the right end
    some nice chunks of "down the scale" in both 2 & 3
4 - rhythm change into 6/8 playing in straight chords
       cooling to an nice Am9 (index finger => B) at the end
5   improvised! Don't think he's done that way before
      But note - essentially a mix of the above?
6 - the rhythmic tricks are the same, switches to blues scale!
     chromatic run 2nd time. Rhythm is more important than notes

Superb. His left end chording doesn't change, and there are further oppotunities there? Great stuff, could you "really" write it down? Practice (as he clearly has) swapping these techniques (and they are techniques) flexibly and you've already got 100 "variations" Trust your ears …
Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: playandteach on May 04, 2016, 12:27:28 AM
Here's a video displaying multiple variations on the same tune, if you haven't seen it.  Some are easier than others, and it isn't written, but definitely shows a nice of example of the same tune being played many different ways.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BKrwe9J5y1g
Fantastic resource. Thanks - I shall revisit this clip, I'm sure.

This clip is obviously useful for the OP too.
On a wider point, I sometimes think that we might sometimes underestimate either the self-awareness of someone asking for specific resources, or impose our own way of thinking. If the OP wants written down variations, there are many good reasons why that approach might suit him very well. It makes me think of someone asking for a recipe for veggie bolognese, and we try to convince them that beef is the only way to go.
I've just noticed that he has said that he has a G/C so I'll attach the pieces I mentioned for that key (and sorry for accrediting Delicq for Chevaux de Bois - I think that's Denecheau).
Thanks again for the youtube clip. Wish I had more time.
Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: jack on May 04, 2016, 07:10:13 AM
Here’s one I made earlier!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnAB3sCm7Bg

My system for the parallel 6ths is pairing fingers 2 and 4 and pairing fingers 3 and 5 and walking crab-like across the rows. However SD is clearly using his thumb to get that smoothness, so might have to give it another whirl!
Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: playandteach on May 04, 2016, 07:45:01 AM
 Thanks for this. I use my thumb too - find it straightforward enough - even copes with the dutch reversal. Thumbs are what separate us from lower species (shame I can't find a way to include PA players here). I still have a lovely Brandoni for sale...
Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: Pete Dunk on May 04, 2016, 01:27:15 PM
Not sure "variations" should be written down as they are in a sense part of what makes your play unique. improvisation even more so, but that's a much longer journey.

Northumbrian pipers use variations somewhat differently of course as they are part of a formal repertoire that is used in order to grade playing skills and musical ability, rather like ABRSM grade exams. Some sound more like repetitive exercises than tunes although many are entertaining musical pieces in their own right. The attached PDF has one of the more entertaining sets of variations but like so many from this repertoire it's very busy in places! :o
Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: JM on May 04, 2016, 03:07:40 PM
Such excellent thoughts.  Thanks so much to all of you.  Since I am still in later half of book 1 of the Milleret/Pignol, I suppose that is why I didn't know about arpeggios and even chord structures just yet.  But these make sense that they will be major steps to variations in the future.  Octave changes,, holding basses, and even adding some filler notes seem doable for now. 

Can't wait to get started on these resources! 

(Playandteach:  I don't see those attachments you mentioned, are others seeing them?)


Thanks again,

JM

Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: Grape Ape on May 04, 2016, 03:25:21 PM
JM, also if you search "tablature diato" or "tablature accordeon diatonique" loads of tablatures will come up.  Bernard Loffet's and Erwan Tanguy's sites seem to be a couple of the best sources but there are others.  Many of the members here seem to have something against Tablature, though I use it frequently as I play on BbEbs, CFs, GCs, and now Ad and find that tablature makes switching between boxes easy.  I have not seen Tablatures that expressly show variations however.  For me, due to a deficient understanding of music theory and the different key boxes I play, it works well.
Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: Steve_freereeder on May 04, 2016, 05:01:19 PM
(Playandteach:  I don't see those attachments you mentioned, are others seeing them?)

I don't think P&T has included any attachments so far in this thread - just names of tunes.
Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: playandteach on May 04, 2016, 07:21:43 PM
Might get to it tonight, when the kids are in bed - wife away and loaded with marking, and I need to access the computer they're stored on.
Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: playandteach on May 05, 2016, 09:58:20 AM
Sorry it's taken a while. Had to find the files and convert to pdfs.

Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: playandteach on May 05, 2016, 10:02:51 AM
Sorry Tiquetonne first upload is for D/G. The new one is for G/C and has a simple clarinet part (in C) I put in (in a hurry) for a pupil to try.
Sorry spotted a couple of mistakes - changed upload now.
Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: JM on May 05, 2016, 12:42:19 PM
Thanks so much Playandteach!  Those files are going to be very helpful.

JM
Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: playandteach on May 05, 2016, 08:03:17 PM
Here's another Delicq tune. La Princesse Blanche. He has two different sections which use different chord sequences, but he has written a couple of countermelodies that work over the chord sequences (either as variations or possibly to play simultaneously).
As far as I know the versions I've written down are by Delicq himself.
But as an effort to extend the options I've written a further couple of 16 bar countermelodies (or call them variations) at the end.
So sections A-E are Delicq, F and G are mine over his first chord sequence.
Hope they are of some use.
Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: Natalie on September 09, 2019, 07:31:08 PM
How can I learn to make own variations of tunes? :) Are there any tips / tutorials / books?


For example resources / tips like these bellow

Here's a video displaying multiple variations on the same tune, if you haven't seen it.  Some are easier than others, and it isn't written, but definitely shows a nice of example of the same tune being played many different ways.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BKrwe9J5y1g

Thanks - great example of the "flexible" approach

variation
1 - change octave
2 - counterpoint against  play arpeggios of its chords
       then more chording (sus) and rhythm change
3 arpeggio the tunes chords on the right end
    some nice chunks of "down the scale" in both 2 & 3
4 - rhythm change into 6/8 playing in straight chords
       cooling to an nice Am9 (index finger => B) at the end
5   improvised! Don't think he's done that way before
      But note - essentially a mix of the above?
6 - the rhythmic tricks are the same, switches to blues scale!
     chromatic run 2nd time. Rhythm is more important than notes

Superb. His left end chording doesn't change, and there are further oppotunities there? Great stuff, could you "really" write it down? Practice (as he clearly has) swapping these techniques (and they are techniques) flexibly and you've already got 100 "variations" Trust your ears …

Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: Steve_freereeder on September 09, 2019, 08:16:16 PM
How can I learn to make own variations of tunes? :) Are there any tips / tutorials / books?
Variations of a tune are really a type of music composition. It's whatever comes into your head, pehaps by humming, singing, or just noodling around with the tune, trying out different things, altering a note or two here and there, changing an arpeggio passage into a scale, or whatever seems to sound right to you.

You could as well ask 'how can I learn to write poetry?' or 'how can I learn to paint a picture?'. It has to come from within you; no books or tutorials are going to help you with your own imagination.

To quote (loosely) the great Norfolk melodeon player Tony Hall: when asked how he worked out his amazing right-hand harmonies and countermelodies, he replied 'I just pokes about a bit - if it sounds OK, I use it'. 

So - just try poking about a bit and see where it leads you.
Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: Jesse Smith on September 14, 2019, 03:19:42 AM
How can I learn to make own variations of tunes? :) Are there any tips / tutorials / books?
Variations of a tune are really a type of music composition. It's whatever comes into your head, pehaps by humming, singing, or just noodling around with the tune, trying out different things, altering a note or two here and there, changing an arpeggio passage into a scale, or whatever seems to sound right to you.

You could as well ask 'how can I learn to write poetry?' or 'how can I learn to paint a picture?'. It has to come from within you; no books or tutorials are going to help you with your own imagination.

To quote (loosely) the great Norfolk melodeon player Tony Hall: when asked how he worked out his amazing right-hand harmonies and countermelodies, he replied 'I just pokes about a bit - if it sounds OK, I use it'. 

So - just try poking about a bit and see where it leads you.

I think this touches on the perpetual question of how much of a performance is improvised and how much is worked out in advance. I'm certainly never sure. When we hear some rock guitarist play a wild guitar solo or listen to John Coltrane or Dexter Gordon take off on some improvisational saxophone voyage far away from the tune they started with, are they actually improvising "in the moment" or are they playing things they have sat down and experimented with for weeks? Maybe a bit of both. The more you practice in advance, the larger a "bag of tricks" you have at your disposal to pick and choose from as you are playing.

I think often in musical performance there is strong motivation to create the illusion that everything is completely spontaneous and being played "from the heart". The reality may often be quite different.
Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: baz parkes on September 14, 2019, 11:45:45 AM
I regularly play variations.

People have been known to call them mistakes...
Title: Re: Variations for a beginner
Post by: Tone Dumb Greg on September 14, 2019, 12:15:31 PM
I regularly play variations.

People have been known to call them mistakes...

and you can, of course, create them on the fly.
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