Melodeon.net Forums
Discussions => Instrument Design, Construction and Repair => Topic started by: odonovanchris on March 24, 2020, 11:56:18 PM
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Well I've been toying with the idea of designing my own accordion for some time and came up with a few ideas that I'd like to get some feedback on from the many many decades of experience on melnet. Here goes:
1. - Why not mount the reedblocks on the outside of the soundboard? So I'm imagining the pallets being inside the bellows and sticking through some sort of airtight seal between the fingerboard and behind the sound board. This configuration would have the advantage of being way easier to tune i.e. the tuning bellows are built in, just remove the grille and file/scratch away to your heart's content. Theoretically it would make tuners' lives miles easier and lower the need for Dirks tuner...etc etc. Another thing is that you would very rarely need to remove the bellows pins thus minimising wear on the holes. Am I missing something here?
2. - Get rid of pallets. I think this would really allow the instrument to resonate more freely and amplify it significantly. Sprung pallets with felt effectively dampen the soundboard in my opinion. Another valve that could be used is the coupler mechanism. So you push on a key and it moves the punched metal strip to open the air gap. This would be internally built into the soundboard. My concerns with this are that it may require more key force to actuate. But I'm sure there'd be a way to optimise this setup.
3. - Self-tuning reeds. Ok I know this sounds crazy but I think I know how this would work. The base of the reed would have a tiny metal roller that can be moved back and forth with a grub screw or other method. Another way would be to micro-machine a slot into the innards of the reed itself. Then you could insert or retract a tiny strip of metal in the reed thus changing its mass properties and theoretically changing the pitch. So this would eliminate the need for filing (which is so messy anyway). Also it could be set up in a way that you could press a button that connects to a complex coupler system that could switch the whole accordion to a different key (say B/C to C#/D).
4. - 3D Printed Reedblocks. Modern 3D printing technology has advanced so much in the last decade that much higher resolution is available and the need for certain consumable support structures has lessened. Also it has become way cheaper. Plastic reedblocks would be a lot lighter and they could be structurally designed to maximise strength and resonance.
5. - Get rid of reedblocks all together. This would be taking a lesson from the old zinc plates with reeds mounted directly on them. Why not design a soundboard that has the reed slots and rivet holes built in? This combined with numbers 1, 2 and possibly 3 above would be a big change in accordion design. Having them on the outside of the bellows would make the tuning easier and the layout could be optimised to create a super compact box... eg a concertina haha
6. - Get rid of all those valves. Surely there's a way to get rid of valves i.e. by redirecting the airflow in a way that there wouldn't be the individual valves for each reed but more robust larger valves further away from the soundboard. My thinking here is to take away further sources of dampening on the soundboard - I think a 3D printed manifold system for airflow between the valve and the reeds is possible to design. Air compressibility would play a big factor here though. I'm still formulating this idea in my head so I'll elaborate at a later stage. I'll have a chat with James Dyson and get back to you....kidding
7. - Vegan Accordion. Yes you heard it. The world is moving towards sustainability and eco-friendly alternatives. So ideally the accordion I design would be leather and wax free. Even though I'm not a vegetarian and I love the smell of old paolo soprani leather bellows I still think future customers will be picky in this regard. I recall someone asking about vegan bellows in a post on this site.
8. - Super ergronomic. I would try to design the bass-end with lots of curves and angled buttons to minimise carpal tunnel syndrome and eliminate the need for large sponges (see Sharon Shannon).
I would really value feedback on the points above. Am I dreaming too much? I genuinely think most of the things above are achievable to pack into 1 accordion and I think they can compliment the instruments design. I'm sure some of these ideas were tried in some form or other so if you have examples please share.
Cheers. Chris O'Donovan
PS I saw that there's a thread on 21st Century Design so it might be good to link this post in that too.
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Useful ideas!
Link to 21st Century Box (http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php?topic=7840) thread
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1) This sounds like a really bad idea. The possible advantages to the tuner would be massively outweigh by making/keeping an airtight seal around the mechanism as it passes through the fondo.
2) As has been discussed at length on this forum the soundboard is not a soundboard and it does not resonate and the pallets do not dampen any thing. The only effect the pallets have is caused by the amount they lift, if it is too low the sound is quietened.
3) As an engineer this appeals but as a melodeon fettler it would scare me to death. The amount of problems people bring into workshop which boil down to dust in the reeds would make me think that having a complicated roller mechanism, especially one with electronics, would be vet counter productive.
4) Reed blocks do not resonate, in fact if they do it is a bad thing.
5) Having a single reed plate is, in my fettling opinion, a bad thing as any failure of a reed tongue would be difficult to rectify. Currently I would just replace the reed plate a reasonably cheap item, if all the reed were on a single plate the cost of replacing a reed plate would be significantly higher. The other alternative would be to replace the tongue but that requires unriveting, sourcing a new tongue and re riveting, none of these being easy to do.
6) Having a single 'large robust' valve would be a bad thing, the boxes currently have lightweight and responsive valves which act very close to the reed. Having a single valve would require it to be remote from the bulk of the reed so there would be a column of air between the valve and the reed tongue which would make the effect of the valve on the reed sluggish.
7) There are already vegan concertinas available and we have discussed the possibility of vegan melodeons on this forum previously. As far as I can work out the only non-vegan parts in a standard box are the leather diamonds in the corners of the bellows which I'm sure could easily be replaced with a vegan alternative. Old boxes also used animal based glues but this is also easily rectified.
8 ) Not sure there is a one size fits all solution to the ergonomics. Simple things like rounding the back of the bass box is done on many boxes, few boxes do not have stepped buttons on the bass.
Sorry to rain on your parade
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Lester I think it's possible that this is a wind-up and you swallowed the bait! It is getting close to April 1st.
Being more serious:
3 this has been done at least experimentally. The Bluesbox pitch bending accordion (http://www.bluesbox.biz/). The maker is very secretive about the details of the pitch adjusting mechanism
4 3D printed reed blocks would appear to be practical possibility, but I still need convincing of the advantages. I can see for prototyping and small scale production they would be good. Weltmeister have used plastic reed blocks for some year, but injection moulded. So plastic blocks do work, though the sound of boxes with plastic blocks is not to my taste. Recording of Welty Ruben PA here (https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=weltmeister+rubin&iax=videos&ia=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DhYrDXpjLs7k) This model has plastic blocks.
5 a member here did discuss this a few years back and reportedly had a design, but I've not seen details.
6 getting rid of valves and using a manifold would need a mechanism in the manifold to switch between push and pull reeds. Almost certainly more cumbersome than valves.
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Lester I think it's possible that this is a wind-up and you swallowed the bait! It is getting close to April 1st.
Hope that is true but having already done today's chore I have nothing better to do than
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An artist as well! Blow me down!
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7. Vegan accordion.
This has in fact been done by at least one person: Stéphane Groleau of Québec (https://ecordeon.veganequebec.net). Previous discussions of the project:
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php?topic=6007.20
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php?topic=22880.0
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An artist as well! Blow me down!
No, the original is here: https://xkcd.com/386
Well worth checking out daily: there's a new cartoon every 2 or 3 days and some (like this one) have become absolute classics.
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7. Vegan accordion.
This could link in with the 'Box Disposal' thread.
You could eat them........yum yum.
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Do you “need” a gadget to bend notes?
Doubled reeds are pretty stable, be that bandonèon or MM tremelo. But dry tuning, or single voices bend pretty easily. I do it quite often when singing blues
Minimally depress the key, you want just a mere trickle of air and pull, quite hard. The note will bend, as per a mouth organ.
You control the bend mainly with left arm, though nuanced key pressure works too. It “can” be done on push but harder to control. With practice up to a semitone is possible.
Reeds seem to learn to bend, the more you do it. 🤔 Like any late night jazz stuff, I’m not 100% sure that it’s good for them 😉
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1) This sounds like a really bad idea. The possible advantages to the tuner would be massively outweigh by making/keeping an airtight seal around the mechanism as it passes through the fondo.
2) As has been discussed at length on this forum the soundboard is not a soundboard and it does not resonate and the pallets do not dampen any thing. The only effect the pallets have is caused by the amount they lift, if it is too low the sound is quietened.
3) As an engineer this appeals but as a melodeon fettler it would scare me to death. The amount of problems people bring into workshop which boil down to dust in the reeds would make me think that having a complicated roller mechanism, especially one with electronics, would be vet counter productive.
4) Reed blocks do not resonate, in fact if they do it is a bad thing.
5) Having a single reed plate is, in my fettling opinion, a bad thing as any failure of a reed tongue would be difficult to rectify. Currently I would just replace the reed plate a reasonably cheap item, if all the reed were on a single plate the cost of replacing a reed plate would be significantly higher. The other alternative would be to replace the tongue but that requires unriveting, sourcing a new tongue and re riveting, none of these being easy to do.
6) Having a single 'large robust' valve would be a bad thing, the boxes currently have lightweight and responsive valves which act very close to the reed. Having a single valve would require it to be remote from the bulk of the reed so there would be a column of air between the valve and the reed tongue which would make the effect of the valve on the reed sluggish.
7) There are already vegan concertinas available and we have discussed the possibility of vegan melodeons on this forum previously. As far as I can work out the only non-vegan parts in a standard box are the leather diamonds in the corners of the bellows which I'm sure could easily be replaced with a vegan alternative. Old boxes also used animal based glues but this is also easily rectified.
8 ) Not sure there is a one size fits all solution to the ergonomics. Simple things like rounding the back of the bass box is done on many boxes, few boxes do not have stepped buttons on the bass.
Sorry to rain on your parade
Hi Lester. Thanks for the detailed feedback. I've watched your videos too and they're great.
1) There are tons of examples in industry/engineering where a mechanism has to go through an air pressure differential - and the pressure difference on an accordion is small. I think the advantages of having the reeds on the outside far outweigh solving the air leak issue. I have a couple of ideas of where a seal is not even required - the coupler method could be done on one side of the fondo for instance. Having the pallets on the inside would require gearing anyway because they would try to close the pallets rather than open them if the normal lever setup were used when the key is pushed.
2) Interesting point - I didn't realise this. There is an audible difference between different soundboard materials though so I was thinking the soundboard/fondo and everything affecting it would change the tone of the instrument??
3) Also an engineer here. I think this shares a similarity with "the look on the farriers face when he saw the model T rolling by" or "the look on the Mechanics face when he saw his first Tesla"...etc etc. Same thing here. Fettlers will have to deal with disruptive innovation at some stage or else it will be all OEM repairs.
The whole problem of dust in the reeds is true. I suspect a lot of the dust is caused by previous tuning jobs where the filings weren't hoovered/vaccumed out properly. What if the reed tongue and plates with integral tuning mechanism were precision machined like an apple macbook pro or the likes? And if you don't have to file the reeds to tune them then there will be significantly less mess in the box.
5) & 6) I totally agree...great points! Thanks.
This definitely isn't an April fools joke haha. I'm just trying to "think out of the box" and look for innovative solutions for future box designs. I'm currently teaching myself how to tune boxes and I have a keyboard conversion on the go. Getting so many ideas from this process. An interesting thing is I've reached out to several accordion tuners in Canada for advice on tuning / repair, or if I could shadow them for a day of tuning. They all tried to discourage me from it - I sense a conflict of interest in that they're protecting their own business. Anyway that's a discussion for a different thread. Melnet is a great resource.
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The "soundboard" might act as a filter, rather than a resonator, which would – perhaps – explain the difference in sound.
But as usual with accordion, this would require experimental testing (an experimental protocol testing various common beliefs on accordion sound, especially to account for the variability in the making process, would need several replicates and so on). We have to rely on empirical experience from accordion makers, which, as you would expect will be vastly different depending on the person you're talking to).
I would be more interested in using designs inspired by the CBA, if I think about novel ideas. Like having more cassotto models, and more frequent H voices, and so on. Rather than having smaller and smaller instruments.
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Dust:
I’ve seen inside a lot of dusty accordions, but metal filings rarely figure. Lots of fibres from clothing, upholstery etc. I’m some times able to tell the owner what colour of dog or cat they have from fibres stuck in reeds and settled into various corners. I don’t think metal filings are really a problem.
Access to reeds for tuning:
I don’t really think this is a big deal as far as mounting reeds outside the fondo goes, but such an arrangement should have quite a dramatic effect on sound. Probably much louder. You need to build a test instrument to find out.
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Dust:
I’ve seen inside a lot of dusty accordions, but metal filings rarely figure. Lots of fibres from clothing, upholstery etc. I’m some times able to tell the owner what colour of dog or cat they have from fibres stuck in reeds and settled into various corners. I don’t think metal filings are really a problem.
Access to reeds for tuning:
I don’t really think this is a big deal as far as mounting reeds outside the fondo goes, but such an arrangement should have quite a dramatic effect on sound. Probably much louder. You need to build a test instrument to find out.
Haha that's funny about the pet colour. I'll have to look for fine grille cloth that can filter out dust but maximise air flow. HEPA filter anyone??
On the loudness point - back in the day when they added reed banks for loudness I wonder if they tried this method? Challenge accepted. I'll have a go off building this concept. Will probably 3d print the whole thing to start and then refine it after.
Thanks for the info!
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7. Vegan accordion.
This has in fact been done by at least one person: Stéphane Groleau of Québec (https://ecordeon.veganequebec.net). Previous discussions of the project:
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php?topic=6007.20
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php?topic=22880.0
Wow he did a great job on that. Good info on the types of materials to use on the bellows too. Thanks for that resource.
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no. 3 very old idea. The art of organ building, George Ashdown Audsley, vol 2, first published 1905, describes free reed stops with a mechanical tuning mechanism.
As detailed the tuner is accessable from the atmospheric side whilst the reed is on the bellows side.
Vegan materials can be short lived. I have repaired organ bellow, like melodeon but larger, that were previously repaired with vegan material diamonds. They crack after about 10 years. I've also made synthetic pipe bags, again a shortish life. Leather last 100 plus years with care.
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no. 3 very old idea. The art of organ building, George Ashdown Audsley, vol 2, first published 1905, describes free reed stops with a mechanical tuning mechanism.
As detailed the tuner is accessable from the atmospheric side whilst the reed is on the bellows side.
Vegan materials can be short lived. I have repaired organ bellow, like melodeon but larger, that were previously repaired with vegan material diamonds. They crack after about 10 years. I've also made synthetic pipe bags, again a shortish life. Leather last 100 plus years with care.
Very interesting. I googled that book and there is an ebook preview but the diagrams are not there. Some of the descriptions mentioned "tuning wire". Is this part of that mechanism to tune the individual reeds? Has this ever been tried on melodeons?
There has to be a material out there to replace leather that is vegan. The search continues :) Thanks for your valuable input!
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I think I’ve seen somewhere that Wheatstone experimented with tuneable reeds. I don’t have a link, but clearly it came to nothing.
Eddy Jay is building 3D printed concertinas, and also has ideas for tunable reeds. I’ll post a link to that.
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no. 3 very old idea. The art of organ building, George Ashdown Audsley, vol 2, first published 1905, describes free reed stops with a mechanical tuning mechanism.
As detailed the tuner is accessable from the atmospheric side whilst the reed is on the bellows side.
Vegan materials can be short lived. I have repaired organ bellow, like melodeon but larger, that were previously repaired with vegan material diamonds. They crack after about 10 years. I've also made synthetic pipe bags, again a shortish life. Leather last 100 plus years with care.
Very interesting. I googled that book and there is an ebook preview but the diagrams are not there. Some of the descriptions mentioned "tuning wire". Is this part of that mechanism to tune the individual reeds? Has this ever been tried on melodeons?
There has to be a material out there to replace leather that is vegan. The search continues :) Thanks for your valuable input!
diagram attached. part H is the tuner.
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That diagram seems to closely resemble an accordion reed. I can't seem to find that setup when I google organ reeds. Instead I get the shallot configuration where the reed is pressed against a slightly curved surface by the tuning wire. See attached photo. I think this could be scaled down for accordions however it would need to work with the slot instead of the shallot.
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Ok I found it. See this link and scroll to near the bottom. Nice explanation of the free reeds being built and voiced. Would be interesting to see this implemented in a melodeon.
http://www.dobsonorgan.com/html/instruments/op76_philadelphia/op76_construction.html (http://www.dobsonorgan.com/html/instruments/op76_philadelphia/op76_construction.html)
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I’ve worked on several bandoneon, with the single long reed plate, as well as on Nick's Organette, ditto. Broken reeds can be replaced by sending the plate to Harmonikas, at €25 a pop, plus postage. I actually like the idea of a single plate, because they are lighter and a lot more compact than single reed plates. You need delicate little reed chambers. I have some pix somewhere of a bandoneon's innards. You obvs have to be v careful when tuning, and getting at inside reeds, esp the little ones, is nigh on impossible. On the plus side, the plate is easy and quick to lift on and off.
A skill I’ve not yet acquired is to replace the reeds myself. You can actually buy just the tongues from Carini, which would give you a head start, or maybe recycle from a regular reed plate. But for compactness and if you wanted a small, light but two voice instrument, it might be one possible way to go.
Another (probably crazy) idea I had was to mount a harmonica (or parts thereof) where you would have a reed block, or maybe two reed plates, for a super small instrument. But....how to manage either tiny tiny little pallets and then the levers fanning out to a decent size, like on a typewriter, or have a sort or air channel system to feed to air into the harmonica chambers. Dunno on that. I think the alarm went off I got out of bed. It occurred also that you could use a melodica reed plate, but that only works in one direction...
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I too like to experiment and try to be innovative, but I must say I largely agree with Lester as to most of your suggestions being unfeasible, unpractical and/or counterproductive, so I needn't go into details. All I want to add is that during my career I have built 1 vegan melodeon, which turned out to be one too many. Leather is a wonderful material and definitely not unsustainable. If the vegan community has a problem with accordions there are plenty of other musical instruments to choose from.
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Another (probably crazy) idea I had was to mount a harmonica (or parts thereof) where you would have a reed block, or maybe two reed plates, for a super small instrument. But....how to manage either tiny tiny little pallets and then the levers fanning out to a decent size, like on a typewriter, or have a sort or air channel system to feed to air into the harmonica chambers. Dunno on that. I think the alarm went off I got out of bed. It occurred also that you could use a melodica reed plate, but that only works in one direction...
I really like the harmonica idea. 3 of them for musette would be cool to hear. A professional childrens box!
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As a pipe organ aficionado, the idea of a "roller" changing the tuning immediately make me think of pipe organ reeds. They are tuned by moving a wire up and down the reed tongue to some extent. They are also tuned by making adjustments to the resonators on the pipes. However, in an accordion/melodeon I would think such an arrangement would be very fussy--especially since the box would be moved/shaken/jiggled a good deal more than the average organ pipe.
Dennis S.
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As a pipe organ aficionado, the idea of a "roller" changing the tuning immediately make me think of pipe organ reeds. They are tuned by moving a wire up and down the reed tongue to some extent. They are also tuned by making adjustments to the resonators on the pipes. However, in an accordion/melodeon I would think such an arrangement would be very fussy--especially since the box would be moved/shaken/jiggled a good deal more than the average organ pipe.
Dennis S.
Agreed. And the reed tongue would have to be clamped tightly by the tuning mechanism while being played while maintaining the ability to move back and forth when tuning. Not an easy feat by any measure. Especially for 200 reeds in 1 box.
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Yes, this is because organ reeds are not free reeds. The pitch is determined by the pipe. The reed wire therefore only has a small effect on pitch, so its adjustment is less critical. I'm not even sure whether those wires are for pitch or to set the reed's operating pressure, response or tone.
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the diagram in my post (18)is a free reed, the resonator is as much about balancing the tone . very much like the sized chambers in a concertina. The picture in the following post is a single beating reed, and is much more dependent on the pipe for pitch.
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All those things are true to some extent. However, organ reed resonators ("pipes") are not always full-length, so pitch may be primarily determined by the tuning wire in the case of what are known as "fractional length reeds." The reed itself, known as the tongue, is "voiced" by adjusting the curvature.
Dennis S.
Yes, this is because organ reeds are not free reeds. The pitch is determined by the pipe. The reed wire therefore only has a small effect on pitch, so its adjustment is less critical. I'm not even sure whether those wires are for pitch or to set the reed's operating pressure, response or tone.
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Roland went through this and came up with the V-Accordion ;)
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An artist as well! Blow me down!
No, the original is here: https://xkcd.com/386
Well worth checking out daily: there's a new cartoon every 2 or 3 days and some (like this one) have become absolute classics.
My all time favourite... <sob> https://xkcd.com/695/