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[mselic]

The bass spoons on the Hohner one-rows are notorious for leaking air. To counter this I usually replace the pads, bend the spoons a little so they sit a little more flush, and sometimes even place a small shim under the back of them where they fasten. I find that even with these adjustments, the spoons will sometimes seal properly and sometimes not. Does anyone have any tricks that they use in this regard?

[Tiposx]

The replacement spoons are quite soft, and the stems easy to bend into the correct position.

[Peadar]

You need to get the bend at just the heel of the paw- Metal always has a tiny bit of spring in it. So you need to overbend so that when the metal springs back to it's "permanent set" the spoon lies paralel to and the thickness of the pad off the side of the growl box. Putting a thin shim - maybe your bank card under the heel or toe of the spoon, depending on which way you want it to go and then pushing gently down on the opposite side may help you get it just right.

[Peadar]

Any advice on replacement pad material and suitable adhesive for spoon bass pads?

[Steve_freereeder]

Any advice on replacement pad material and suitable adhesive for spoon bass pads?

Charlie Marshall has the pallet facings. This stuff should be OK for Hohner Spoon basses
http://www.cgmmusical.co.uk/CGM_Musical_Services/Felt_Leather_Pallets.html#10

Glue - any low-solvent/solvent-free contact adhesive, e.g. Bostik, will be fine. A thin smear on the bass spoon, then immediately press on to the chamois. Trim off excess chamois when the glue has set.

You may need to carefully bend the spoon at the heel end, to ensure a flush, air-tight seal. 

[Theo]

I like to use some soft thick leather that I found as an offcut from a local leather shop.  It’s about 2mm thick  and the softness allows it to be less affected by small misalignment of the spoon. You could also use 2mm felt/leather pallet facing.

[Peadar]

Melnet: The forum that never sleeps!
Thanks Theo & Steve both.
It is actually Dienst International bass spoons I (personally) am thinking of at the moment. I was thinking of trying plain Chamois leather in the first instance as it has the softness that I think Theo was referring to.

[gettabettabox]

I once had a 4 stop Hohner which had the ‘bass’ holes modified with surrounding plastic rings, the bodies of which raised upwards, sharpening in profile and presenting a fine edge for the spoon pad to settle on. Only about 3-4mm in height, but it seemed to me that the spoons settled themselves better onto these than onto a flat surface with a hole.

[mselic]

I once had a 4 stop Hohner which had the ‘bass’ holes modified with surrounding plastic rings, the bodies of which raised upwards, sharpening in profile and presenting a fine edge for the spoon pad to settle on. Only about 3-4mm in height, but it seemed to me that the spoons settled themselves better onto these than onto a flat surface with a hole.

That’s a very interesting idea!

[Steve_freereeder]

I once had a 4 stop Hohner which had the ‘bass’ holes modified with surrounding plastic rings, the bodies of which raised upwards, sharpening in profile and presenting a fine edge for the spoon pad to settle on. Only about 3-4mm in height, but it seemed to me that the spoons settled themselves better onto these than onto a flat surface with a hole.

That’s a very interesting idea!

Yes - I've sometimes thought of that sort of design myself. It's pretty much how modern wind instruments make an air-tight seal with their leather-faced pads.
Metal bodied instruments, e.g. flutes, saxophones - have a raised ring around the tone-hole. Wooden instruments, e.g. clarinets, bassoons, have a reverse counter bore around the tone hole - like a countersunk hole in reverse, so there is an upstanding cone with a hole in the middle.

The first time I ever took a concertina apart (very many years ago!) it made me wonder about the efficiency of flat pads sealing a plain hole and at the time I wondered whether it could be improved by a sort of wind instrument design and pad.

[playandteach]

I once had a 4 stop Hohner which had the ‘bass’ holes modified with surrounding plastic rings, the bodies of which raised upwards, sharpening in profile and presenting a fine edge for the spoon pad to settle on. Only about 3-4mm in height, but it seemed to me that the spoons settled themselves better onto these than onto a flat surface with a hole.

That’s a very interesting idea!

Wooden instruments, e.g. clarinets, bassoons, have a reverse counter bore around the tone hole - like a countersunk hole in reverse, so there is an upstanding cone with a hole in the middle.

I don't think the bore shape is anything to do with seating. Where it's used is for intonation - countersinking the hole from the underside will raise the pitch of the lower note, whilst leaving the top note relatively untouched. And the shape of the bore affects stability of pitch over flexibility - longer chimneys being more stable is only helpful if they are in tune in the first place - if not you want the flexibility. The rolled tone holes on flutes and some saxes obviously both provide a bigger area for the seal, and don't cut into the pad as much.
EDIT - Sorry Steve, just realised what you were saying about the cone - you weren't talking about the internal bore, but the external shape of the chimney. Got it now.

[Peadar]

It is accuracy of seating and compliance of the seal material that makes a valve air tight or not. The spring loading (force applied perpendicular to the valve port) divided by area of the valve port is the pessure at which the valve will lift - i.e. ease off it's seating permitting air to escape. This is why spoon basses seal better on the draw than on the push. Conversely trap-door basses seal better on the push than on the pull.

I think Steve was refering to the annular groove round the tone holes on modern clarinets. Early clarinets didn't have this feature. They also had far fewer keys -and looking at a family photograph- these were square spoons.

[george garside]

all I can say is that over many years of hohner one row 4 stop playing I have never had the slightest problem with the bass spoons which I always either tap lightly or hold down for a sustained chord.  Could it be that some of us are more 'heavy fingered' than others ??

george

[mselic]

all I can say is that over many years of hohner one row 4 stop playing I have never had the slightest problem with the bass spoons which I always either tap lightly or hold down for a sustained chord.  Could it be that some of us are more 'heavy fingered' than others ??

george

The issues I’m referring to having nothing to do with the amount of force used to activate the spoons.

[Steve_freereeder]

...
I think Steve was refering to the annular groove round the tone holes on modern clarinets. Early clarinets didn't have this feature. They also had far fewer keys -and looking at a family photograph- these were square spoons.

Yes, that's what I meant. Also am aware of the design of early clarinets (and other wind instruments). My Northumbrian small pipes have flat leather pads on the keywork which seat on to a flat edged hole. It's normal practice to regularly apply olive oil (pipe-maker Colin Ross started using mineral oil) to the leather pad seating surface in order to maintain a good air seal.

EDIT - Sorry Steve, just realised what you were saying about the cone - you weren't talking about the internal bore, but the external shape of the chimney. Got it now.

No worries! Yes that's what I meant. My fault for not using the correct terminology! (what is the correct term that tone hole design?)

[playandteach]

It is accuracy of seating and compliance of the seal material that makes a valve air tight or not. The spring loading (force applied perpendicular to the valve port) divided by area of the valve port is the pessure at which the valve will lift - i.e. ease off it's seating permitting air to escape. This is why spoon basses seal better on the draw than on the push. Conversely trap-door basses seal better on the push than on the pull.

I think Steve was refering to the annular groove round the tone holes on modern clarinets. Early clarinets didn't have this feature. They also had far fewer keys -and looking at a family photograph- these were square spoons.

You're right, I misread his point. And you're also right about the early clarinets using square spoons, even on the longer keys. They were usually box wood, and brass keys - are spoons cast, and would that make a difference?

[Steve_freereeder]

are spoons cast, and would that make a difference?

No, they are not cast. Just sheet metal (nickel-plated brass?) stamped out and bent into shape.
Like this: http://www.cgmmusical.co.uk/CGM_Musical_Services/Hohner_Parts.html#62

Edited to correct typo

[Theo]

Nickel plated steel on older Hohners, stainless steel on recent Hohners.

[Kimric Smythe]

To get that ring seal on a spoon valve you might have luck finding a piece of metal tubing that would fit inside the hole the pad covers and glue it in with it projecting about a mm. The tube would only need to extend the thickness of the hole.
You would get some turbulent airflow over that edge that would reduce the total flow a bit.
A handy person could also make a flat ring of thin wire  slightly larger than the hole and glue it to the surface around the hole under the pad. You could file any high spots after the glue dried.

[Peadar]

Nickel plated steel on older Hohners, stainless steel on recent Hohners.

And very thinly eletroplated steel - judging by their propensity to break out in rust spots.

I did wonder if they aren't chrome plate- the colour doesn't look quite right for nickel silver to my eye.

I also  suspect that in the 1920's and earlier cadmium plate might have been used by some manufacturers.

In the past both chrome and cadmium have been used for plating food use utensils and both are deadly poisonous so probably not a good idea to re-use old spoon basses as cofee stirrers.