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Author Topic: Using the pushed C chord on a DG  (Read 3545 times)

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Tufty

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Re: Using the pushed C chord on a DG
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2020, 09:06:54 PM »

In fairness, I think those who apply the poke about a bit approach generally do so in full awareness of what they're poking and why (or why not), it might work in a particular situation They are not really idiot savants.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Using the pushed C chord on a DG
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2020, 09:10:32 PM »

Quote
In fairness, I think those who apply the poke about a bit approach generally do so in full awareness of what they're poking and why (or why not), it might work in a particular situation They are not really idiot savants.
I am! (Or at least half way ;D)

Just because you don't hang labels on things doesn't mean you don't know what it sounds like. It's clear that you know how to make it sound good.


I mean, in that case, you might expect that their advice wouldn't be 'just poke at stuff', but would be a fair bit more nuanced? ...

To put it another way, you can make your judgements based on what it sounds like, rather than what it looks like on paper. As an approach, it's not without nuance.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 09:18:09 PM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Greg Smith
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Dave Praties

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Re: Using the pushed C chord on a DG
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2020, 09:44:48 AM »

In fairness, I think those who apply the poke about a bit approach generally do so in full awareness of what they're poking and why (or why not), it might work in a particular situation They are not really idiot savants.
I am! (Or at least half way ;D)
[/quote]

I agree. The great improvisations of Bach, and Gunner Idenstam today are just informed pokings about. Nothing wrong with it at any level though, I poke about on a duet concertina at a very low level, but am learning by the process. Not sure how happy it makes my poor wife though!
Dave
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CAB

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Re: Using the pushed C chord on a DG
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2020, 10:33:06 AM »

T Hall on da Tube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_mV36o-c9f--UCBItLRmuw

Good link thanks, Dick.   Never had that album so I shall enjoy that.
I no longer have the wherewithal to play my old 1970s vinyl copy of the earlier Fieldvole Music, which seems not to be on Youtube, but I see it's now available as a CD
https://www.free-reed.co.uk/frrr03  ... along with some of the label's other great recordings, including How to Make a Bakewell Tart!  Great stuff!
https://www.free-reed.co.uk/frrrs1

On the subject of "poking about" It just sounds like misplaced modesty to me.  Some fine players generously share their skills here and too much humility is not always helpful.  Just my two pennorth, as they say.  Loadsa good ideas from others.  And two camps do seem to have developed as to what the phrase means!  For me, as soon as it's informed, it stops being poking about.  But let's not get into semantics.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 10:35:47 AM by CAB »
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Anahata

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Re: Using the pushed C chord on a DG
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2020, 10:46:55 AM »

The skill isn't in the poking about, it's in recognising which of those experiments sounds good.
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george garside

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Re: Using the pushed C chord on a DG
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2020, 11:41:08 AM »

absolutely agree!   
According to the Oxford dictionary 'nuance'  means 'subtle shade of meaning, feeling, colour etc'.
Good 'by ear''  players  have ,by definition, to indulge in a great deal of nuancing! and have the freedom so to do. 
some readers may find it more difficult as they endeaver to reproduce exactly what is written
nk
some less than good players  of either sort  think playing the right notes in the right order is doing the job!

Perhaps  those who do a bit of both have the best chance of going to town on nuancing and  thereby of putting their own stamp on what they play.

george
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Howard Jones

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Re: Using the pushed C chord on a DG
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2020, 12:18:11 PM »

I frequently use the push C chord with the G bass.  No doubt someone will be able to put a name to what I'm doing, I just poke buttons until I find a sound I like.

I taught myself to play guitar from a book where chords were represented by "windows", diagrams of the strings and frets with dots to show where the fingers go. I learned to think of chords as shapes rather than as groups of notes.  When I started playing anglo concertina I poked about until I found the chords I wanted.  Later I worked out what some of them are called, but I still think of them as shapes rather than notes.  When I picked up a melodeon I just started playing tunes, without worrying about what the notes were called - I can find the G and D but after that I have to work my way up the scale.  I know the main chord button pairs but couldn't put names to cross-rowed chords.  Over the years I've picked up a few bits of music theory but I don't actually consciously apply it when I play.

I do have what Gena called a "toolkit" and I know how to achieve the sound I want, usually without too much trial and error, but I lack the theoretical background to explain it or the vocabulary to talk about it.

Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Using the pushed C chord on a DG
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2020, 01:17:51 PM »

I frequently use the push C chord with the G bass.  No doubt someone will be able to put a name to what I'm doing, I just poke buttons until I find a sound I like.

You're playing the C chord with a G bass  :D
Guitar speak, C/G
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Greg Smith
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Winston Smith

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Re: Using the pushed C chord on a DG
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2020, 01:25:30 PM »

Thanks for that full explanation, Howard. Other than that I've never played the push C chord over a G bass, I could have written it about my own learning path to date, but your version is more thoroughly elucidated.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Using the pushed C chord on a DG
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2020, 01:30:24 PM »

Last year in a workshop, the tutor made the point that generally in musical notation "bass goes under the chord" as Greg describes.
I've taken to use this notation when adding basses and chords to my abc transcriptions.
If it's a bass run then I'd notate it as /G,  /A, /B for a G-A-B bass run.
Annoyingly abc apps don't seem to 'see' this.....
Q
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I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

CAB

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Re: Using the pushed C chord on a DG
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2020, 03:49:25 PM »

I taught myself to play guitar from a book where chords were represented by "windows", diagrams of the strings and frets with dots to show where the fingers go. I learned to think of chords as shapes rather than as groups of notes.  When I started playing anglo concertina I poked about until I found the chords I wanted.  Later I worked out what some of them are called, but I still think of them as shapes rather than notes.  When I picked up a melodeon I just started playing tunes, without worrying about what the notes were called - I can find the G and D but after that I have to work my way up the scale.  I know the main chord button pairs but couldn't put names to cross-rowed chords.  Over the years I've picked up a few bits of music theory but I don't actually consciously apply it when I play.

After many years of playing, on and off, the melodeon remains the only instrument I play where I don't automatically know which note I'm playing at a given moment without having to think about it.  Muscle memory lets me find a tune and play basic chords without thinking about it.  It's only when I want to do something more interesting that I consciously apply musical knowledge or theory.  Then gradually, those theoretically worked out bits become embedded in the muscle memory and crop up automatically in other tunes. 
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Calum

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Re: Using the pushed C chord on a DG
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2020, 04:29:24 PM »

In fairness, I think those who apply the poke about a bit approach generally do so in full awareness of what they're poking and why (or why not), it might work in a particular situation They are not really idiot savants.
I mean, in that case, you might expect that their advice wouldn't be 'just poke at stuff', but would be a fair bit more nuanced?

I got in trouble last time I suggested that what people, even very good players, say and what they do may be two different things, consciously or unconsciously.  And given our societal worship of "talent" as opposed to "hard work", there is a certain amount of prestige involved in being known to be an "idiot savant"...
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Lester

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Re: Using the pushed C chord on a DG
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2020, 05:31:35 PM »

Can we please stop using the 'idiot savant' term, now it is usually referred to as savant syndrome or autistic savant. The use of idiot to describe some one with learning or mental disabilities should be, and in my house is, considered offensive.

Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Using the pushed C chord on a DG
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2020, 05:40:26 PM »

Can we please stop using the 'idiot savant' term, now it is usually referred to as savant syndrome or autistic savant. The use of idiot to describe some one with learning or mental disabilities should be, and in my house is, considered offensive.

Apologies. Ididn't realise it might be offensive.
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Greg Smith
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CAB

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Re: Using the pushed C chord on a DG
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2020, 05:22:43 PM »

  Big thank you to all who responded to my original query and contributed to this thread.  I shall be trying out the ideas in the coming weeks.  Here's what I think has been suggested:

USING THE PUSHED C BASS & CHORD ON A DG MELODEON

1.  Combining the chord with a RH note to create a new chord: 
a) Thirds out, with a RH Eb to give a C minor chord.  Nice when playing in G minor or in D Freygish
b) With RH Bb to give C7

2.  The C bass combined with another chord:
a) With D chord to suggest D7
b) With G chord as appropriate, either block chord or G bass followed by C chord

3.  Playing a C chord/bass with a RH note that exists only on the push, e.g. bottom octave G

4.  Holding a C chord/bass for suspense when the phrase cannot be played all on the pull, i.e. in the absence of pulled Ds

5.  To get the bellows back in when there’s too much pull in the tune – e.g. some A minor tunes

6.  To minimise row-crossing, e.g. when playing in C or doing the suspense thing.

ALTERNATIVE LAYOUTS
 1.  Replacing pushed LH C with F major, as on a club, has some value if you have pushed RH Fs.  I find this useful for playing in G mix and Am (with pushed RH A) but also possibly in C major and Dm (3rds out)
 2. Replacing pushed LH C with F# minor opens up several possibilities – a rocking bass when playing in D; a complete G scale in the bass; and a useful chord for playing tunes in D major and in B minor.

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Theo

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Re: Using the pushed C chord on a DG
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2020, 05:41:02 PM »

Another one C chord plus D bass, C9 chord available on both directions. 
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