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Author Topic: Speed, the eternal enemy!  (Read 1937 times)

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Thrupenny Bit

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Speed, the eternal enemy!
« on: September 05, 2019, 10:52:35 AM »

Hi Gang,
Just trying to be reflective on my playing at the moment.
I'm learning a couple of tunes that are a bit wordy, in other words lots of dots in triplet form.
I'm also aware at times I rush passages, doing the classic 'speeding in a built up area' and want to try and pull this back to improve my playing.
I'm practicing the phrases at slow speed and trying to be precise and clean in my playing, and bring this forward to playing the tune at the speed I'd normally play it at. Not 'fast', I tend not to be a fast player, just 'faster than practice speed' so the tune hangs together.
OK so far so good.

What amazes me is when playing a tune at a 'normal' speed the incredibly small difference between playing it cleanly and the slight increase in speed so you don't play cleanly, just blast through hoping all is well!
I'm finding that speed difference absolutely minimal and difficult to control.
Just wondering how others resolve the knife edge balance between OK and oops too fast!
Q
being reflective.....

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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Theo

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Re: Speed, the eternal enemy!
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2019, 11:01:59 AM »

Quote
I tend not to be a fast player, just 'faster than practice speed' so the tune hangs together.

Also you need to practice faster. Yes its vital to practice slowly, but then you also need to practice at progressively faster speeds until you can play "cleanly"  at a considerably faster speed than you would play in public.  Then when you perform you know you could play faster if you want to, so you are relaxed and that helps you to avoid speeding up by mistake!
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nigelr

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Re: Speed, the eternal enemy!
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2019, 11:05:51 AM »

I too have been amazed at the small differences tempo can have on playability.  We had one tune for North West where I kept playing too fast for the dancers and often the wheels would fall off and I'd mess up.  When it worked, though, it was great. I chatted to the bass player about the issue and he estimated that the difference between perfect and too fast was about 5 beats per minute.  Tiny in the grand scheme of things!!
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Speed, the eternal enemy!
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2019, 11:09:06 AM »

Oh! fair point.
Perhaps it all comes back to internalising a tune.
The tunes I know well I can play at a good speed cleanly, and I suspect the speed has increased over time simply because I know the tune well and regularly play it.
Thanks Theo, will muse on that!
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Speed, the eternal enemy!
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2019, 11:13:04 AM »

Nigel, I hit 'send' as you posted, sorry.
Yes I also have been thinking about speed and dancing.
I remember years back we had a real heated discussion about speed at practice. To resolve it our musician brought in a metronome at the next practice.
The difference for us dancing Cotswold, between 'just right' and 'too fast' was around 1-2 beats a minute.
As you say, tiny, but it makes a world of difference.
Q
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I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Julian S

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Re: Speed, the eternal enemy!
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2019, 11:29:19 AM »

I have tried playing against metronome, getting tune settled. Then increase metronome a bit, few times through - and repeat ! Helps for me but if I leave the tune unpracticed for too long the old errors creep back.
Playing my 2.4, sometimes I also try changing fingering from cross row to up and down (or vice versa). And as Theo said, learning to play faster than performance is good - if you can remember to dial it back when in public !

Julian
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Speed, the eternal enemy!
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2019, 12:40:43 PM »

I don't seem to get on with a metronome, though it could be through not persevering.
I do find it useful though to get the speed right before starting, getting the foot tap at the right speed. I'm learning a couple of slow marches, and the British Army slow march is 60bpm ( something learnt from Buttrey ) which is useful to get the foot tapping at what seems a slow speed before starting playing.

I suppose by speeding, at least you understand where it will go off the rails, and yes dialling it back is the answer. After a slow go through I will often then play at normal speed and realise it might be a tad fast, then consciously pull it back. At that point it will go well.
I suppose it's fixing that 'slower' speed into your mind before whizzing off into the tune is critical and difficult to pin down.
Plus to play faster you must really know the tune.
I think really knowing the tune inside out could be the critical point here.
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Theo

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Re: Speed, the eternal enemy!
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2019, 12:47:24 PM »


Plus to play faster you must really know the tune.
I think really knowing the tune inside out could be the critical point here.
Q

Exactly the point I was trying to make.
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Graham Spencer

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Re: Speed, the eternal enemy!
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2019, 12:49:56 PM »

As far as morris is concerned, I mentally dance it as I'm playing. I'm sure having been a dancer (still am) before being a musician has helped.

Graham
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george garside

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Re: Speed, the eternal enemy!
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2019, 03:03:54 PM »

I  pretty much agree with whats been said so far on this thread  , particularly learning to play a tune faster than you would play it for normal eg  playing for dancing.This works on the basis if you can play it accurately at fairly high speed  both the mind and the fingers will  be better able to cope  at ''normal' speed whatever that may be.

There are two other things I would like to 'chuck in''

1. always watch the dancers  and play to the feet of the best dancer in you line of sight.  generaly speaking if the good dancers look comfortable and relaxed you will be at around the most suitable speed for a particular dance.  BUT rather than play at a fixed speed throughout a dance be prepared to make small adjustments    so you don't hold the dancers back ( they have difficulty in hovering) or push them along at a 'just too fast' speed.

2.  Think in terms of  rhythm, dynamics and phrasing  i.e.  a steady beat, variations in volume (  aim play at around half throttle so you can go louder or quieter) and stick some punctuation ( like full stops and commas in the spoken word) to break a tune up into chunks  rather than belting along at full volume  and hoping foor the best!

george
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Speed, the eternal enemy!
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2019, 03:47:42 PM »

Thanks Theo. I often find by talking things through here amongst friends helps to clarify my thoughts.
Yes, really getting to know a tune must be the start of playing it better. That is becoming clear.

George - I'm glad you've popped in!
A comment you made a little while ago on a thread was along the lines of 'don't learn more tunes, learn to play tunes you know better'.
I think this was the start of me thinking more about how I was playing. Yes, thinking about phrasing, giving light and dark and also being more precise and clear in what I was playing must be the way forward.

I don't play for morris, just dance it. We are lucky in that our musicians, all dancers, are well aware of the points made and it comes over in the way they play for us. They are all incredibly accomplished in their playing for morris.

Phew.... lots of good things to ponder!
thanks peeps
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

boxer

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Re: Speed, the eternal enemy!
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2019, 04:53:19 PM »

My own experience has been that paying close attention to the phrasing of a tune, and, wherever possible, adapting fingering patterns to help to place stresses where they're needed, helps to keep a tune's speed under control.  If it's in 2:2, 2:4 or 4:4, I like to learn the tune by playing it with a lot of swing at a very steady pace.  It's easy to cut the swing down when the tune's embedded.  I practice it with stress on the beat, and then off the beat.  I find that this makes it easier for me to apply stresses at will, rather than where the box's dynamics might have me place them, and in that way I can more easily rein in the speed if I've suffered the sort of lapse of concentration that can easily happen at a dance. 

Playing fast reels under control is trickiest, and I find that placing stress at the start of each two-bar phrase, and letting the rest of the phrase flow smoothly is one way to do it.
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george garside

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Re: Speed, the eternal enemy!
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2019, 05:23:00 PM »

to provide the 'lift' that dancers require the emphasis needs to be on the 'off beat'  .in um pa  terms that is a short 'um' and a longer 'pa'.  if not playing bass for whatever reason it is foot down briefly and foot up for a bit longer. in other words do with your 'timekeeping' foot what ;you expect the dancers to do with theirs.

george
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Roger Hare

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Re: Speed, the eternal enemy!
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2019, 10:37:05 PM »

I'm not quite sure if it's relevant to this thread, but the book 'The Practice of Practice'
was discussed in a thread on concertina.net recently:
https://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?/topic/21425-jonathan-harnums-practice-of-practice/

What appears to be a shortened version/sample of the book is available as a free download:
http://www.djangobooks.com/forum/uploads/FileUpload/82/d0bfa24761cb297a043fb6b654925f.pdf

Might be worth a look? I haven't had a chance to look at it yet...
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 10:43:58 PM by Roger Hare »
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Speed, the eternal enemy!
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2019, 08:31:27 AM »

Hmmmm….. thanks Roger. That might be a good way forward.
I have just ordered 'The Inner Game of Music' after it was recommended in another thread. For some reason I have a delivery date for the end of the month, so I will wait and see what that brings by way of advice.
I take the point though, practice more effectively is a fundamental point and what I'm trying to achieve.
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

george garside

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Re: Speed, the eternal enemy!
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2019, 10:36:08 AM »

from a psychological and probably nit picking angle  I  discourage  my students from 'practicing' as it has connotations of must do it for x hours a day/week or whatever  and also of ' I must do it  until I get it right' etc etc  in other words it makes it into a chore  that must be done and which is devoid of 'enjoyment'.'fun'  or pleasure.

Playing a tune ( or perhaps just a tricky bit thereof) until you feel it sounds the way you want it (hopefully better) for numerous relatively  short periods  interspersed with playing jolly tunes  that you are ok with  can have a dual effect   .   the tune you are not happy with can  gradually improve and  the tunes you are happy with may well get better!

It is also worth keeping in mind  that  the desired way a tune is played is in our world of squeezing is very much  down to individual taste (? plus ask a friend!!)'  and that there are often several different ways of so doing all of which may or may not be deemed 'correct or well played' by others

Treating 'practice' too seriously  can have the opposite to the desired effect. 

george
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Speed, the eternal enemy!
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2019, 02:40:31 PM »

George, I do agree.
I'm not one for scales and arpeggios practice, but there are aspects of my playing I wish to improve.
I need to go back to my roots again and be more constructive. By all means play tunes and enjoy playing but continually making mistakes over tricky bits need to be ironed out. If not I'm merely reinforcing my mistakes.

I am going back to play trickier pieces more slowly and cleanly. Perhaps it's me but I enjoy concentrating on a phrase or tricky but and taking it really slowly. I find it satisfying to remember exactly the notes rather than remember a blur that somehow I get through.
After some exerted concentration, I usually relieve it by mixing up my time with a few tunes that I know well.
Recently I've been thinking more about this, trying to be more clean and not rush and am starting to find the rushed bits are becoming more measured and clean.

Yes by a means enjoy your playing but I'm finding thinking about those tricky bits and taking it slower for a little while is a constructive way forward.
Cheers
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

george garside

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Re: Speed, the eternal enemy!
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2019, 05:19:29 PM »

it can  help to take bits that are proving tricky and practice them separately  . an example of this could be the bars 4,9 and 12 0f harvest home which each have 12 or 10 notes to the bar and which therefore have to be fingered and bellowed rather swiftly!  As a mostly on the row player  I find using both rows on a Dg makes it easier  . It is also easier a BC box  probably because both rows have to be used.

george
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IanD

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Re: Speed, the eternal enemy!
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2019, 06:11:02 PM »

Not just for morris, the same applies to any dance -- when Committee Band were doing recordings and we had to lay down a rhythm track first which meant agreeing on the "right" speed, 2bpm made all the difference -- for example 125bpm too fast, 120bpm too slow, 122bpm just right.

Anyway if you're playing for Cotswold morris in particular the speed should vary subtly depending on who is dancing, how tired/sober they are, how much audience-pleasing effort they're putting in, what figure/movement they're doing -- playing at at the same metronomic speed every time (or even throughout the dance) is entirely wrong -- you should always be watching the dancers and trying to get the speed "just right"...

Though perhaps not to the extent Mr Jorrocks used to take this where the music becase so disjointed in timing it barely sounded like a tune any more -- it was said that if the rave-targeted ban on public dance music (defined as "music with a succession of repetitive beats") was ever passed they'd be the only morris team still permitted to dance in public ;-)
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Re: Speed, the eternal enemy!
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2019, 11:03:03 PM »

Though perhaps not to the extent Mr Jorrocks used to take this where the music becase so disjointed in timing it barely sounded like a tune any more -- it was said that if the rave-targeted ban on public dance music (defined as "music with a succession of repetitive beats") was ever passed they'd be the only morris team still permitted to dance in public ;-)
I used to love watching Mr Jorrocks with their very measured slow style, and listening to their musicians, especially if it was Jessica playing solo on pipe & tabor. When she was playing, if the dancers jumped up into the air, they did not come down again until she was ready to allow them!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTYyslDSvt4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aP9DkxM1Pc
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